Becoming an AI PM | Aman Khan (Arize AI, ex-Spotify, Apple, Cruise)

Aman’s background (0s)

• A product manager can come to a meeting with prototypes and ideas, thanks to AI making it super feasible to create mocks, allowing for a higher resolution starting point for discussions (10s).
• For those looking to pivot their career to be an AI product manager, it's almost counterintuitive, but it's probably easier now to break into AI product management than it was before, thanks to resources like YouTube videos on building apps in an hour (30s).
• The typical AI product manager can be separated from the top 5% by asking themselves questions about their skills and experience (57s).
• Aman Khan is the director of product at Arize AI and has focused on building products in the AI space, including at Spotify, Cruise, and Apple, while intentionally staying an individual contributor (1m11s).
• Aman was near the top of the list when people were asked on Twitter and LinkedIn about their favorite individual contributor product manager (1m53s).
• The conversation with Aman covers topics such as how to get into AI, how to become an AI product manager, the different types of AI product managers, how to thrive as an AIPM, and what Aman has learned about being successful as an individual contributor PM long-term (1m42s).
• The discussion also touches on the trend of companies cutting back on management layers and the rise of AI tooling making PMs more productive, allowing individual contributors like Aman to thrive (1m26s).
• Aman's experience and insights are valuable for those looking to get into AI and become AI product managers, as well as those looking to thrive as individual contributors in the field (2m9s).
• This episode is sponsored by Pendo, an all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application, which helps to uncover what's really happening inside a product and turn those insights into action (4m0s).
• Pendo is built around product analytics, allowing users to see what their users are actually doing in their apps, and then optimize their experience (4m26s).
• Pendo also lets users deploy in-app guides that lead users through the actions that matter most, integrate user feedback, and visualize user sessions through session replays (4m32s).
• Over 10,000 companies use Pendo today, and users can visit pendo.io/Lenny to create a free Pendo account and start building better experiences across every corner of their product (4m51s).
• Additionally, Pendo offers a lineup of free certification courses led by top product experts to help users grow and advance in their career (5m3s).
• This episode is also brought to you by Vanta, a market-leading trust management platform that helps companies assess risk, secure the trust of their customers, and automate compliance for SOC 2, ISO 27001, HIPPA, and more (5m23s).
• Vanta's platform continuously monitors compliance, alongside reporting and tracking risk, and can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta's AI (5m43s).
• Thousands of global companies use Vanta to automate evidence collection, unify risk management, and streamline security reviews, and users can get $1,000 off Vanta when they go to vanta.com/Lenny (5m58s).

Understanding AI product management roles (6m16s)

• A product manager is responsible for bringing together various teams, including design, engineering, and operations, to ship impact and represent the customer, ultimately solving their problems (6m47s).
• In addition to the general product manager role, an AI PM has three flavors: AI platform PMs, AI product PMs, and AI-powered PMs (6m56s).
• AI platform PMs build tools for AI engineers, such as observability and evaluation platforms for artificial intelligence, and are responsible for enabling AI engineers to understand the impact of their applications (7m5s).
• An example of a company that builds tools for AI engineers is Arize AI, which provides an observability and evaluation platform for artificial intelligence (7m7s).
• AI product PMs work on products where the core technology is centered around AI, such as chatbots or language models, and their job is to package the technology and make it consumable for businesses or consumers (8m32s).
• Examples of AI product PMs include those working on products like ChatGPT or Notebook LM, where the core experience is enabled by the model underneath the hood (8m37s).
• AI-powered PMs are enabled by AI technology across the entire stack of the role and are not responsible for building the core technology, but rather for utilizing AI to enhance their existing product management role (9m36s).
• As AI becomes more pervasive, product managers will likely trend towards building experiences that utilize large language models or other types of models to best serve their customers, even if they don't have access to the same resources as larger companies like Google or Open AI (9m56s).
• In the near future, most product managers will probably be a flavor of an AI product manager, either building tools for other product managers or companies deploying AI, or working with cutting-edge models like notebook LM, Transformer, or GPT models (10m27s).
• To be more efficient and productive, product managers can use tools like Cursor and Repet to build prototypes and understand what's possible, allowing them to show up with functional prototypes that can help tell a story (11m2s).
• Tools like Versel's Vzer can be used to create landing pages and working UIs by typing in a prompt and iterating with the tool, giving product managers a good starting point for initial mockups with the design team (11m33s).
• AI can also be used for graphic design, such as creating logos or visual user stories, with tools like Mid Journey or Dolly, making it more approachable to design interfaces (12m2s).
• The choice of tools depends on the company's focus, with visual tools like image generation being more powerful for experience companies, and emerging tools for 3D modeling making it easier to build physical products (12m29s).
• There are three types of AI product managers: infrastructure PMs who build base models and tools, and two other types that were not fully discussed in this part of the conversation (13m9s).
• Building the UX and actual consumer experience of a product that happens to integrate AI to make it better involves creating the user interface and overall experience for a product that utilizes AI to enhance its functionality (13m22s)

Getting started as an AI product manager (13m29s)

• To become an AI product manager, it's essential to be in love with the problem you're trying to solve and be obsessed with helping customers, whether they're technical users like AI engineers and data scientists or end-users of AI products (14m37s).
• There are two types of AI product managers: those who build infrastructure for other AI engineers and those who build AI products, but both types care about the end customer and want to push the boundaries of what's possible with technology to solve customer problems (14m13s).
• To get started as an AI product manager, it's crucial to spend time understanding the customer problem and designing an ideal customer experience, which can involve finding and learning new tools to help solve the problem (15m35s).
• A good example of an ideal customer experience is a customer support system where a customer can reach out with a problem and have it solved quickly and efficiently, with minimal friction, using tools like Open AI's real-time API for voice chatbots (16m27s).
• Staying curious and driven by your own curiosity can push you in different directions and help you find the right tools to implement in your product, making it an opportunity for people to see what drives them and make the experience possible (17m48s).
• Having a background in a field unrelated to AI, such as mechanical engineering, is not a barrier to becoming an AI product manager, as long as you're willing to learn and adapt (13m53s).
• Learning about AI and machine learning can be done on your own, and it's not necessary to have a PhD or MS in the subject to become an AI product manager (14m11s).
• Yuri's quote, "if you're in love with the problem, you're trying to push the boundaries of what's possible with technology to solve that problem," is a great mindset for AI product managers to have (14m34s).

Building a portfolio and standing out (18m14s)

• To become an AI Product Manager (AI PM), one should start by building a foundation of knowledge in machine learning and AI, and then drive their curiosity to learn more about the technology and its applications (19m8s).
• It is recommended to start with fundamentals, such as watching videos on YouTube, like Andre Karpathy's video on the foundation of lens, and taking notes to understand the technology and its boundaries (19m38s).
• The other dimension is trying to use the tools to figure out how to push the boundaries of what's possible, and the combination of these two things drives the skill level required to be an AI PM (20m4s).
• Since there is no college degree on AI product management, standing out as an applicant requires showing interest in the space, building one's own skill set, and creating a portfolio of products that demonstrate their skills and interests (20m28s).
• A portfolio of products, even if they are just prototypes, can help an applicant stand out to a hiring manager and demonstrate their ability to do the job, their excitement for the work, and their fit with the company culture (20m52s).
• The hiring process for AI PMs is designed to understand three things about a person: can they do the job, are they excited to do the work, and do they fit with the company culture, and having a portfolio can help shortcut this process (21m12s).
• To stand out as an applicant, one should build their skilled stack, start with the foundation, let their curiosity drive them, and turn that into a portfolio that demonstrates their skills and interests (22m18s).

Why product management is not dead (22m31s)

• To be considered for an AI Product Manager (AI PM) role, it's essential to have built actual products using AI, especially now that it's easier to do so with tools like Cursor, Vzer, Repet, Maj, and Dolly, which allow users to storyboard their ideas and bring them to life (22m34s).
• Having a product that has been put out into the world is crucial for a successful AI PM application, as it showcases the candidate's ability to build and launch AI-powered products (23m2s).
• In the past, breaking into AI product management required a deeper foundation and background in machine learning, but now it's more accessible, and AI PMs focus on building experiences around or for other AI product people (23m16s).
• AI PMs are no longer deeply involved in the technical aspects of machine learning, such as training data and model types, but rather focus on using existing tools and technologies to build products (23m43s).
• The role of an AI PM involves being curious and interested in the space, staying up-to-date with the latest developments, and being able to apply new technologies and tools to their work (25m35s).
• The increasing ease of use of AI tools and technologies means that AI PMs need to be able to learn and adapt quickly, and be able to showcase their ability to build and launch AI-powered products (25m16s).
• Examples of how AI tools can be used to build products quickly and easily include building a website or a signup page using Repet, which can be done in a matter of seconds or minutes (24m45s).
• The ability to build and launch products quickly and easily is becoming more important for AI PMs, as it allows them to test and iterate on their ideas rapidly (25m2s).
• The trend in AI technology is towards making it easier for people to build and launch AI-powered products, which means that AI PMs need to be able to stay ahead of the curve and be able to apply new technologies and tools to their work (25m18s).
• The emergence of AI tooling has led to the notion that product managers are no longer needed, as engineers and designers can utilize these tools to build things, but this perspective is incorrect as AI tools excel at building things they are told to build, but struggle with knowing what to build and identifying opportunities for problems to be solved, which is the core function of a product manager (25m43s).
• Product managers are well-positioned to thrive in a world with AI, as they are responsible for finding opportunities, articulating problems to be solved, and having the taste and sense of what is good and great, and what will work in the market (26m43s).
• The role of an AI product manager is to be the representative of how to use AI tools to their highest leverage, and to get the point across of what should be built, which is a powerful position to be in at a company (27m8s).
• AI product managers can uplevel their influence by using AI tools to communicate ideas to design, engineering, and higher-ups, allowing them to be super high-leverage (27m43s).
• The ability to translate ideas to different stakeholders is a key skill for AI product managers, and AI tools can facilitate this process (28m0s).
• Being an AI product manager feels like the highest leverage position to be in at a company, especially in the age of AI (28m18s).
• With the help of AI tools, product managers can now build and design, making them more versatile and influential, similar to Mahika, who is a designer, engineer, and PM, and has been successful at Figma (28m40s).

How to thrive as an AI product manager (28m56s)

• The role of an AI product manager involves building with AI tools or creating platforms for others to build on, and to thrive in this role, one must understand what separates typical AI product managers from the top 5% (28m58s).
• The launch of Chachi BT two years ago was a significant moment in the development of AI products, as it impressed many with its ease of use and human-like capabilities, but it now seems outdated compared to current technology (29m31s).
• When Chachi BT launched, many companies, including well-known brands like Spotify and Instacart, built their own chatbots on top of their data, but these products have limited usage and may not have been the right solution (30m49s).
• To be a top 5% AI product manager, one should not simply replicate what others are doing, but rather think critically about the business needs and problems to be solved, and consider whether the interface for AI might look different from a chatbot (31m37s).
• The interface for AI might involve optimizing or speeding up a part of the process that humans have to do today, making their lives easier, and for some companies, this might involve data analysis or other areas (32m6s).
• The key to success as an AI product manager is to think deeply about the business needs and problems to be solved, and to create solutions that address these needs, rather than simply following what others are doing (31m57s).
• When designing a product with AI, it's essential to consider the right interface, as cutting-edge AI experiences often don't resemble traditional chatbots, and instead, look for opportunities to create something new and different (32m41s).
• If a team is building a product similar to a foundational model, it's likely a red flag, and the focus should be on optimizing for things that feel different and new (32m57s).
• The current moment in AI is centered around AI agents, but it's crucial to understand the problem being solved rather than just describing the solution, which is often an AI agent (33m17s).
• Product managers should ask themselves if it makes sense to build an AI agent within their company or if it's better to allow foundation model companies to build the agentic layer and focus on making the experience seamless in their existing product (33m50s).
• The role of the AI product manager (AIPM) is to take cutting-edge techniques and technologies and find ways to apply them within their organization, rather than trying to design and model from the ground up (34m30s).
• Yuri's point about receiving many emails from people claiming to be building AI for various purposes is insightful, as it highlights the importance of understanding the problem being solved rather than just describing the solution (33m26s).
• The goal of product managers should be to make the AI experience so seamless that it doesn't even feel like AI, and this is where they can truly innovate (34m8s).

Finding good ideas that are AI-oriented (35m42s)

• Many product leaders and companies are proposing AI-based ideas without focusing on the problem they are trying to solve, and instead, they should focus on the problem and use AI as a tool to solve it (35m42s).
• To find good AI-oriented ideas, three practical approaches can be taken: measuring the impact of AI, using hackathons, and identifying the right problems to solve (36m34s).
• Measuring the impact of AI is crucial, but there isn't a standard metric for building prototypes with AI, so a metric such as the number of shots taken can be used to measure progress (36m57s).
• Hackathons are a great way to get people hands-on with AI and remove the feeling that the technology is not approachable, and the goal is to get everyone in the organization to try to use AI (37m32s).
• Hackathons can be used to come up with ideas for problems to be solved and then see how AI can be used to solve those problems, which can result in a list of potential problems and ideas (37m59s).
• Not all ideas will work, and it's essential to identify the right problems to solve and have a good intuition to build around them, which can be developed through hackathons and experimentation (39m16s).
• A real-life example of a hackathon idea that didn't work as expected was a Slackbot that aimed to alert the right person for a problem, but it turned out to be a harder problem to solve than expected due to missing context (38m24s).

Be careful not to automate away every customer experience (39m27s)

• Successful AI products often find a balance between automation and user experience, leaving some control to the customer to make them feel empowered and invested in the outcome (39m55s).
• The goal is to create experiences where AI is "magical," and understanding what makes these experiences successful can inform product development (39m53s).
• The example of Betty Crocker's cake mix, which initially failed when it was too automated, illustrates the importance of giving customers some control over the experience (40m14s).
• Even in fully automated products, such as self-driving cars, customers are often given some control, like adjusting the air conditioning or music, to make them feel more in control (40m52s).
• This concept is related to the "Ikea effect," where people feel more empowered when they have an impact on the end experience (41m5s).
• Blue Apron, a meal kit service, is another example of a product that makes customers feel like they're cooking, even if they're not doing all the work themselves (41m34s).
• The key insight is that AI products should focus on making the experience easier and more accessible, rather than just automating the problem away (42m31s).
• By focusing on the problem being solved, AI can help bring the barrier to creation down and make the product more enjoyable to use (42m38s).
• It's essential to understand the problem being solved and how AI can help, rather than just trying to automate everything (42m46s).

What separates top 5% AI PMs (42m53s)

• To separate themselves from typical AI product managers (AI PMs), top 5% AI PMs must be able to walk and chew gum, meaning they can continuously deliver customer value while creating space to iterate, fail, and experiment with new ideas (43m22s).
• This involves making space for prototyping, trying tools firsthand, and allowing teams to have hackathons and try tools themselves, as well as breaking down product experiences to understand the space better (43m46s).
• Top AI PMs must accept that technology is changing rapidly and that they will encounter failures and bad product experiences, but they must keep iterating to improve AI products (44m50s).
• To be successful, AI PMs must be able to convey the right thing to build amidst the excitement and buzz around AI, and solve customer problems by putting together signals and solving them (46m42s).
• The difficulty of being a successful AI PM can be described by the metaphor of blowing gum bubbles and dancing, which conveys the challenge of doing multiple hard things at once (45m50s).
• The most important and impactful part of being a successful AI PM is taking signals, solving customer problems, and conveying the right thing to build, which is also the hardest part of the job (46m50s).

Key habits for long-term IC success (46m55s)

• To be a successful individual contributor (IC) in product management, one must have a specific skill set, as most people either can't move up the chain and become successful ICs long-term or don't want to, and it's essential to understand what drives you personally, such as being obsessed with solving customer problems (47m49s).
• Being an IC product manager is really hard, and the bar for product managers within a company has gotten higher, with a greater impact needed, and constant signal changes, making it challenging to power through (48m35s).
• Three key areas to break through the challenges of being an IC product manager are energy, waiting versus wandering, and amplifying the signal to make a decision (49m4s).
• Energy can count a lot when you're not sure which direction to go, and showing up to a meeting with extra energy can break down barriers and make conversations feel like a flowing dinner table conversation (49m27s).
• Waiting versus wandering refers to the concept of being faced with a challenge and not knowing the right decision, and it's essential to find ways to power through and make progress (50m12s).
• Amplifying the signal to make a decision is crucial in a world with constant signal changes, and IC product managers must find ways to cut through the noise and make informed decisions (49m9s).
• A product manager's block can be compared to a writer's block, where they struggle to come up with the next idea for a product milestone (50m25s).
• An example of this block occurred when deciding how much to invest in large language models (LLMs) versus existing customer base needs, and the decision wasn't immediately clear (50m50s).
• To overcome this block, one approach is to take on an outbound salesperson role, such as writing LinkedIn messages to people with AI in their profile and iterating on the copy to get them on a phone call (51m15s).
• This approach accomplished two things: learning how to message the problem and product to engage people, and demonstrating to the team a willingness to get into the details and spend time with them (51m40s).
• Being a "player coach" and showing up with energy can move the bar higher for the whole team to operate, as seen in leadership from the CEO who brings energy to meetings despite being tired (52m38s).
• This mentality of being involved in all aspects of the work, like LeBron James coaching and playing, can help overcome blocks and make progress on product milestones (52m25s).

The importance of energy in meetings (52m48s)

• Bringing energy to meetings is crucial, and it's not just about being loud or bright, but about being positive and engaged, which can vary from person to person (52m52s).
• Energy in meetings can be as simple as asking how someone is doing, keeping the tone positive, or showing enthusiasm, and it's about putting out subtle signals that make others feel engaged (53m30s).
• Humans are good at picking up on subtle signals, and as a PM, one should strive to bring the energy level of the room up, rather than down (53m51s).
• A PM's energy can change the whole dynamic of a meeting, and it's essential to be positive and energized, even in challenging situations (54m15s).
• Simple phrases or rituals, like "make it happen," can be powerful in contributing to the team's culture and energy (54m39s).
• As a PM, one has the power to drive the culture of the team and determine how people in the room feel, which is especially important in decision-making and problem-solving situations (55m19s).
• Bringing energy to meetings and being positive can help pull people through challenging situations, and it's essential to put in the effort to solve problems and show others that you're committed (55m35s).
• Pairing with team members to solve problems can help build empathy and understanding of their challenges, and it's essential to recognize that every job is important (56m15s).
• As a PM, spending time with team members, learning from them, and pushing back to contribute to the team's progress can help build a stronger team dynamic (56m43s).

Wandering vs. waiting (57m0s)

• The concept of "wandering versus waiting" is crucial for product managers, especially in the context of AI, as it involves deciding whether to wait for new technologies to emerge or to proactively explore and figure out the direction to take the team (57m6s).
• Waiting might make sense initially to see what technologies get built, but there's also a need for wandering and trying to figure out where to go, which is a key role of a product manager (58m51s).
• The inclination to wait and see is common, especially in broader companies, but product managers should be willing to take the lead and explore new directions (58m9s).
• Being a "wanderer" can be tough, as it involves being in the unknown and trying to find signals to bring back to the team, but it's also where AI product managers can stand out (1h0m27s).
• The role of a product manager is to push the boundaries of what the company thinks is possible, which sometimes requires being in a squishy and uncertain space (1h0m34s).
• Building from zero to one can feel like not knowing what the right decision is, but product managers should be comfortable with uncertainty and keep wandering and iterating until they find the right direction (1h1m1s).
• The founders of a company can provide reassurance and guidance, but ultimately, the product manager needs to be willing to take the lead and make decisions based on their exploration and iteration (1h0m54s).
• The goal is to feel the "drag" of the product pulling in a certain direction, which requires patience, persistence, and a willingness to wander and try new things (1h1m16s).

Amplifying signal through AI tools (1h1m41s)

• When feeling uncertain about a product's direction, it's okay to not have a clear path, as it can be found through experimentation and prototyping, which is made easier with AI tools, reducing stress and allowing for trying out different ideas (1h1m41s).
• AI can help amplify the signal through the noise, especially when the signal is sparse, by utilizing powerful tools such as Gong to understand customer pain points and prospects (1h2m8s).
• Tools like Gong can be used to analyze transcripts of meetings and conversations with potential customers, which can be fed into large language models to identify common problems and pain points (1h2m15s).
• These language models can pull out the most common problems and allow for powerful conversations around them, and can also be used with voice data to find signal through the noise (1h2m36s).
• By leveraging AI tools, it's possible to scale oneself up and gain a superpower-like ability to be in many places at once, using technology to find signal and gain an advantage (1h3m1s).
• It's essential to find ways to scale up with AI and use it to amplify the signal, allowing for more effective decision-making and product development (1h3m10s).

Just have fun (1h3m18s)

• Having fun is crucial for success in product management, as it drives learning, curiosity, and building products for customers that one cares about, ultimately leading to faster iteration and progress (1h3m47s).
• A Serial entrepreneur and board member advised to "just have fun" as the key advice for a product manager, emphasizing the importance of enjoying the journey and not just focusing on the destination (1h3m44s).
• Constantly learning and having fun enables product managers to iterate faster and be more high-energy, making the work more enjoyable and leading to better outcomes (1h4m14s).
• Reframing stressful and scary situations to focus on having fun can help product managers navigate challenges more effectively and find opportunities for growth and enjoyment (1h5m23s).
• The idea of having fun is not limited to product management, as it also applies to public speaking, where the biggest piece of advice is to make speaking fun, even when it feels scary (1h5m1s).
• A simple reminder, such as a post-it note with the words "have fun," can serve as a powerful motivator and help product managers stay focused on enjoying the journey (1h4m32s).

Lightning round (1h5m36s)

• Aman Khan recommends two books: "A Short History of Nearly Everything" by Bill Bryson, which tells the story of the history of science from the perspective of the scientists who discovered various things, and "Designing Your Life" by Stanford professors and founders of IDEO, which provides practical exercises to help figure out one's career direction (1h5m51s).
• "A Short History of Nearly Everything" is recommended because it puts things into perspective, discussing the scale of the universe and how long humans have been here, and provides fun anecdotes from scientists along the way (1h5m51s).
• "Designing Your Life" is recommended because it comes with practical exercises that can help people figure out their career direction, including writing out the meaning of work and life to find the overlap between the two (1h7m22s).
• The exercise of writing out the meaning of work and life is clarifying and can provide direction for those feeling stuck in their career (1h7m52s).
• Aman Khan does not usually binge-watch TV and does not have a favorite recent movie or TV show (1h8m46s).
• A recent favorite documentary is the Tour de France documentary on Netflix, which showcases the competitive level of cycling and the characters' stories and motivations (1h8m51s).
• A favorite product is Repet, an AI product that helps with prototyping and creates polished products at the end of the day (1h9m52s).
• Another favorite AI product is Vzero, which also helps with prototyping and creates polished products (1h9m57s).
• A product that has been used and enjoyed lately is Webson, which creates a playful version of prototypes and allows users to push the boundaries of what's possible (1h10m7s).
• Webson's subreddit has many posts showcasing its capabilities, and even the founders had trouble describing its uses in a presentation (1h10m25s).
• A non-AI product that has been enjoyed lately is a notebook made from recycled apples, which has a unique smell and creates a positive feedback loop, making the user want to keep using it (1h11m20s).
• Aman Khan's favorite life motto is a quote from Steve Jobs, "Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life," which he finds powerful in reassessing his goals and the life he wants to live, rather than following others' expectations (1h12m47s).
• This quote has been a guiding principle for Aman in making decisions and thinking deeply about the kind of life he wants to live (1h13m35s).
• Aman has a namesake who is a cricket player and often comes up first in Google search results, which can be frustrating, but he takes it lightly and jokes that his parents didn't optimize his name for SEO (1h14m0s).
• Aman's solution to this issue is to give his future children unique names to avoid similar problems, and he also hopes that the rise of LLMs might give him a second chance to be part of the training data set and increase his online presence (1h14m30s).
• Aman can be reached and followed by people who want to connect with him, although the specific contact information or social media platforms are not mentioned (1h15m29s).
• Listeners can be helpful by sharing their stories of trying to figure out how to get to the next part of their career, whether it's involving AI or pivoting into it, and Aman would love to hear from folks interested in this career path (1h15m43s).
• Aman can be reached on LinkedIn, which is the best way to connect, and he may spend more time on X in the future (1h15m36s).
• Aman is open to responding to messages, but has one condition: he wants people to share their top three favorite books, movies, podcasts, or videos that impacted them in some way, and in return, he will share his own top three (1h16m9s).
• This approach is inspired by John Dur, who spoke at Aman's college and shared his email address, saying he would respond to anyone who emailed him with their top three favorite books, movies, or podcasts (1h16m16s).
• Aman finds this approach helpful in building an amazing collection of content and getting to know people better (1h16m50s).
• Listeners can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or their favorite podcast app, and consider giving a rating or leaving a review to help other listeners find the podcast (1h17m10s).
• All past episodes and more information about the show can be found at Lenny podcast.com (1h17m23s).