Bernie Sanders Interview | Lex Fridman Podcast

Introduction (0s)

• The ideas discussed are widely supported, including raising the minimum wage, healthcare for all, and a tax system where billionaires pay their fair share (0s).
• These ideas gained popularity after running for president, having large rallies, and winning 23 states, showing that they may not be as crazy as initially thought (14s).
• The establishment does not like these ideas and tries to convey that the world is the way it is and will always be, discouraging people from thinking otherwise (31s).
• An outsider campaign was run, taking on the Democratic establishment, and although it did not win, it came close and won 23 states (55s).
• The ideas discussed are believed in by working-class people and young people (1m4s).
• Bernie Sanders is a senator from Vermont and a two-time presidential candidate who, as the underdog, gained the support and excitement of millions of people (1m12s).
• This conversation is part of the Lex Fridman Podcast, and support for the podcast can be shown by checking out the sponsors in the description (1m30s).
• Bernie Sanders is introduced, and the conversation begins with a question about his childhood (1m37s).

MLK Jr (1m40s)

• Bernie Sanders' philosophy is that politics should focus on the issues facing the people of the country and the world, rather than on individual politicians, and he prefers to talk about the issues rather than himself (1m51s).
• In 1963, Bernie Sanders was active in the Civil Rights Movement, got arrested for protesting segregation in Chicago, and attended the March on Washington where Martin Luther King Jr. (MLK) gave his famous "I Have a Dream" speech (2m14s).
• The March on Washington was a pivotal moment for Bernie Sanders, who took a bus ride down with fellow students from the University of Chicago and was impressed by the large crowd and MLK's message, which emphasized not only racial justice but also jobs and justice (2m35s).
• MLK had a significant influence on Bernie Sanders, who learned from King's approach to enacting change through grassroots organization and community pressure, which led to the end of segregation and the expansion of voting rights (3m11s).
• Bernie Sanders also admires MLK's courage in speaking out against the Vietnam War, despite having won the Nobel Peace Prize and facing backlash from the establishment and editorial pages, which criticized him for overstepping his bounds as a civil rights leader (3m45s).
• MLK's commitment to justice and equality extended to his support for workers' rights, as evidenced by his involvement in the Memphis sanitation workers' strike, where he was assassinated while fighting for the rights of low-wage workers to form a union (4m16s).

Corruption in politics (4m33s)

• Bernie Sanders gave a speech in 2002 opposing the Iraq War, predicting its consequences, and voted no on the Iraq resolution and the Patriot Act, citing the lessons learned from the Vietnam War and the lies told to justify it (4m34s).
• Sanders believes that the military-industrial complex, as described by Martin Luther King, is a significant issue in the United States, with the Pentagon spending over a trillion dollars a year and being the only federal agency unable to submit to an independent audit (7m49s).
• The concentration of ownership in the US economy has led to an oligarchic form of society, with a few large corporations controlling various sectors, including agriculture, transportation, and healthcare (6m14s).
• Billionaires play a significant role in the US political system, spending huge amounts of money to influence elections and legislation, with companies also employing lobbyists to shape policy (6m38s).
• The pharmaceutical industry is a prime example of the influence of lobbyists, with over 1,800 well-paid lobbyists representing drug companies in Washington DC, contributing to the high prices of prescription drugs in the US (7m36s).
• The revolving door between the military and large defense companies, such as General Dynamics and Lockheed Martin, perpetuates the military-industrial complex and contributes to waste and corruption in the Pentagon (7m50s).
• The system is considered corrupt, rather than individual politicians, as the influence of money and lobbyists is deeply ingrained in the US political system (8m28s).
• Corruption in politics is not typically about politicians taking envelopes with huge amounts of money to vote a certain way, but rather the power of big money to make politicians dependent on wealthy donors, which can influence their decisions (8m36s).
• Running a successful campaign for Senate in a state like Ohio requires raising around $50-60 million, which often involves surrounding oneself with wealthy donors and attending high-priced events, creating a sense of obligation to these financial supporters (8m42s).
• In contrast, Bernie Sanders' presidential campaign received millions of contributions averaging $27 each, and he is proud of not being beholden to big money donors (9m44s).
• Lobbyists and companies rarely try to influence Sanders, and when they do, it's often in a confrontational tone, as he doesn't welcome them into his office (9m53s).
• To fix the system and get money out of politics, one potential solution is to implement public funding of elections, where candidates can receive government funding if they show a certain level of grassroots support (11m12s).
• This approach would limit the amount of money that can be spent on campaigns, making it more difficult for wealthy donors to buy influence and allowing candidates to run competitive campaigns without being outspent (11m31s).
• The Citizens United decision by the US Supreme Court has allowed billionaires to spend unlimited sums of money on campaigns through super PACs, which needs to be overturned to address the issue of money in politics (10m43s).
• Implementing public funding of elections would require a strong popular movement or a president who is willing to take on the issue, despite the potential risks of alienating wealthy donors (11m47s).
• The issue of money in politics is not being discussed by major candidates, but it is a popular idea among the people, and if a president were to speak out about it, it would provide a safety blanket for other politicians to address the issue as well (12m8s).
• A mass movement is needed to bring about change, and people from all parties, including Republicans, Democrats, Progressives, and conservatives, understand that billionaires should not be able to spend tens of millions of dollars to buy elections (12m40s).
• To bring about change, it is essential to have a grassroots movement that asks politicians about their views on issues like Citizens United and public funding of elections (13m5s).
• Many policy proposals may seem radical compared to what other politicians speak about, but they are popular among the people, and it is essential to consider whether it is better to have radical or moderate policies (13m20s).
• Getting money out of politics is not a radical idea, but implementing it would require flipping the system upside down, and most people agree that billionaires should not be able to spend unlimited amounts of money to buy politicians (13m52s).
• Healthcare is a human right, and most people agree that every American should be able to go to a doctor regardless of their income, with around 85-90% of people supporting this idea (14m25s).
• The idea that healthcare is a human right available to all exists in every major country on earth except the United States, and even in countries like Canada, people do not have to pay out-of-pocket expenses for healthcare (14m44s).
• The current healthcare system in the United States is designed to make huge profits for drug companies rather than provide healthcare to people, and this is due to the corrupt political system (15m30s).
• Bernie Sanders is a strong advocate for changing the current healthcare system, which he believes is controlled by insurance companies, and has led the effort on implementing Medicare for all (15m42s).

Healthcare in US (15m50s)

• A potential healthcare system for the United States could be based on the existing Medicare system, which is a "pretty good system" but not great, and has been eroded by private insurance companies through Medicare Advantage (15m59s).
• To strengthen Medicare, deductibles and other costs for seniors could be eliminated, and coverage could be expanded to include dental, hearing, and vision care, which are currently not covered (16m25s).
• The eligibility age for Medicare could be gradually lowered from 65 to 55, then to 45, then to 35, and eventually to include everyone in the system over a period of four or five years (16m45s).
• Studies have shown that removing the profit motive from healthcare by taking it out of the hands of insurance and drug companies could provide quality care to all people without increasing costs, as the US currently spends twice as much per person on healthcare as any other nation (17m2s).
• The cost of the system could be covered by increasing taxes in a progressive way, but this would eliminate the need for individuals to pay for health insurance through their employers or out of pocket (17m25s).
• Currently, many people get their health insurance through their jobs, but this can limit wage increases due to high healthcare costs, and employers often have to choose between offering decent wages or cutting back on healthcare benefits (17m55s).
• The proposed system is not radical and is similar to what exists in countries like Canada, where healthcare is publicly funded through progressive taxation, similar to police departments, libraries, and public education (18m32s).
• Under the proposed system, individuals and families would no longer have to pay for health insurance out of pocket, and would instead pay for it through taxes, which could potentially save them money, especially for those who are currently self-employed or have high insurance costs (18m49s).
• Surprise medical bills are a major issue in the current healthcare system, causing financial and psychological pain, and are the number one cause of bankruptcy, with people often avoiding medical care due to fear of unknown costs (19m24s).
• Many people delay seeking medical care due to high deductibles or lack of insurance, leading to more severe health issues and higher costs in the long run, with some people not surviving due to delayed treatment (20m7s).
• The high cost of prescription drugs is another significant problem, with one out of four Americans unable to afford prescribed medications, leading to worsening health conditions and increased healthcare costs (20m40s).
• An estimated 60,000 people in the US die each year due to lack of access to medical care because of financial reasons, and one out of four people who get cancer in the US either go bankrupt or deplete their family's financial resources (21m12s).
• The current healthcare system is cruel and inhumane, causing unnecessary stress and financial burdens on individuals and families, particularly those dealing with serious health issues like cancer (21m32s).
• A unified healthcare system that works for all people, not just the wealthy or those with good insurance, is necessary to address these issues and ensure that everyone has access to quality medical care (21m49s).
• Even people with good insurance can face significant financial burdens due to high medical costs, as illustrated by the story of Dr. Peter Atia's $6,000 emergency room bill for a basic test and IV treatment for his dehydrated son (22m9s).
• Many families would be financially devastated by a single emergency room visit, highlighting the need for a more equitable and affordable healthcare system (22m36s).
• Many people in the US avoid going to the emergency room due to fear of receiving a large bill, even if they have insurance that covers a significant portion of the cost, highlighting the inhumane and disgusting nature of the US healthcare system (22m46s).
• The insurance and pharmaceutical companies hold significant power and influence in the US, making large campaign contributions and employing numerous lobbyists, which contributes to the lack of fundamental changes in the healthcare system (23m7s).
• Despite the American people wanting change, popular ideas such as reforming the healthcare system are not implemented due to the influence of money in politics (23m19s).
• The US spends twice as much per person on healthcare compared to other countries, yet 85 million Americans are uninsured or underinsured, and the country's life expectancy is lower than most other major countries (23m40s).
• The issue of healthcare is not adequately discussed in politics, and politicians who bring it up are often punished, highlighting the need for a mass movement to drive change (23m57s).
• A populist president who is not beholden to the interests of the wealthy and is willing to speak out on popular issues is necessary to drive meaningful change in the US healthcare system (24m11s).

2016 election (24m23s)

• Bernie Sanders' 2016 presidential campaign was historic, and he feels angry and upset about how it was handled by the Democratic National Committee (DNC), as revealed by the Wikileaks emails, but he's proud of the campaign's achievements in taking on the establishment and corporate America (24m23s).
• Despite having only one supporter in the Senate and no governors supporting him, Sanders' campaign gained millions of votes and brought forth ideas that the establishment had to eventually deal with, including some that were implemented in the American Rescue plan (25m22s).
• Sanders believes he would have won against Donald Trump, who is a smart politician appealing to working-class people's anger, but directing it in the wrong direction (26m13s).
• Sanders has a lot of support from working-class people who understand that something is wrong with the system, and he thinks demagogues like Trump take advantage of this anger (26m52s).
• Over the last 50 years, worker productivity has increased significantly due to technology, but workers' real wages have not increased significantly, and wealth inequality has increased, with the top 1% owning more wealth than the bottom 90% (27m4s).
• According to the Rand Corporation, there has been a $50 trillion redistribution of wealth from the bottom 90% to the top 1% over the past 50 years, resulting in CEOs making 300 times more than their workers and the top three people owning more wealth than the bottom half of American society (27m53s).
• People are angry and worried that their children may have a lower standard of living than they do, despite living in the wealthiest country in the world, and this anger can be tapped into in a constructive way to promote more fair distribution of wealth and power in America (28m15s).
• In 2016, Bernie Sanders' fans wanted him to keep fighting for a progressive takeover of the Democratic party, but he ultimately decided to support Hillary Clinton instead of continuing to fight, as he believed Donald Trump was an extremely dangerous person who threatened American democracy (28m41s).
• Sanders and his supporters did attempt to take over the Democratic party by running Keith Ellison for the head of the DNC, but they were narrowly defeated by the establishment (29m3s).
• Sanders believes that supporting Clinton was the right decision at the time, as it was an attempt to prevent Trump from getting elected, and he made a similar decision in 2020 by supporting Joe Biden, which was more successful (30m8s).
• Sanders acknowledges that politics can be tricky and sometimes requires making difficult decisions that may not be ideal, but he believes that his decisions were made with the intention of promoting the greater good (30m0s).

Barack Obama (30m21s)

• A meeting between Bernie Sanders and Barack Obama in 2018 was discussed, where Obama told Sanders that he's an "Old Testament Prophet" and a moral voice for the party, but prophets don't get to be king, implying that Sanders needs to moderate his approach to win (30m47s).
• Sanders disagrees with Obama's statement, believing that one can run and lose, but still win if the goal is to transform society, citing his heroes Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Eugene Victor Debs as examples (31m28s).
• Eugene Victor Debs was a union organizer, helped form the American Railway Union, and ran for president five times, including once from a jail cell, and although he lost, his ideas laid the groundwork for future changes (31m45s).
• Sanders believes that one needs to raise consciousness among ordinary people and that when people are prepared to fight for change, they can make incredible changes, citing the progress made in recent years, such as women running for president and the advancement of women's rights (32m31s).
• Sanders acknowledges that Obama is a historic figure who has brought about a lot of change and is a symbol that will be remembered for a long time, and he admires Obama's intelligence and the significance of his presidency as the first black president in US history (33m57s).
• Sanders also notes that Obama's presidency was a significant milestone, and his intelligence and ability to bring about change should not be underestimated, particularly in the context of his historic election in 2008 (34m6s).
• Barack Obama is considered one of the best speakers in America, and he and his family, including his wife Michelle and their kids, held the office in a way that earned the respect of the American people, even from those who disagree with him politically (34m21s).
• Obama's presidency was a huge accomplishment, especially considering that some people thought a black president would never be elected due to the country's racism (34m54s).
• Obama had significant achievements during his presidential tenure, although there were disagreements on certain issues, such as healthcare, where Obama opted for the Affordable Care Act instead of Medicare for all (35m5s).
• Obama deserves credit for his accomplishments, including giving a good speech opposing the Iraq War before running for president, which showed courage (35m36s).
• However, once in office, it's challenging to oppose the military-industrial complex, as The Establishment, including the healthcare industry, the military-industrial complex, and the fossil fuel industry, has unlimited money, smart lobbyists, and greedy people who want to maintain their power (35m51s).

Capitalism (36m16s)

• The concept of capitalism has both pros and cons, with some attributing technological innovations and increased quality of life to it, while others criticize its negative aspects (36m17s).
• A balance can be achieved by creating a society that encourages innovation while ensuring a decent standard of living for all people in a wealthy nation (37m29s).
• Scandinavian countries like Denmark, Finland, and Norway have successfully implemented a system where people have access to healthcare, paid vacation, and other benefits without a significant financial burden (37m45s).
• In contrast, the United States lacks a social safety net, with many people struggling to access affordable healthcare, paid family and medical leave, and affordable prescription drugs (38m2s).
• The goal is to create a social safety net that provides basic needs like healthcare, education, housing, and retirement benefits, regardless of income (38m41s).
• This does not mean the government will control every aspect of the economy, but rather provide a foundation for people to thrive while still allowing for innovation and entrepreneurship (39m29s).
• The idea is to allow people to make a good living and create successful businesses, but not to accumulate excessive wealth, such as hundreds of billions of dollars (39m44s).
• Examples of successful implementations of social safety nets can be seen in countries like Germany, where college tuition is free, and people have access to six weeks of paid vacation (38m59s).
• The concept of a social safety net is not about controlling the economy, but about providing a foundation for people to live with dignity and respect (39m16s).
• Bill Gates was asked if becoming a multi-billionaire motivated him, and he replied that he was motivated by his love for programming, not the prospect of becoming wealthy (40m11s).
• Many scientists working on developing life-saving drugs are motivated by the desire to make a positive impact, not just to become billionaires (40m28s).
• The current economic system has gone too far in rewarding success, and people should be able to find satisfaction in their work regardless of their profession (40m39s).
• The issue of hyper-capitalism is a global problem, with a small number of extremely wealthy families holding significant economic power over the majority of the population (41m1s).
• Elon Musk is an interesting case, as he invests his wealth back into his businesses, but there is still a need to balance celebrating innovation with addressing income inequality (41m23s).
• The working class often does not have a living wage, and it is essential to find a balance between celebrating innovation and addressing this issue (41m42s).
• Elon Musk is a brilliant innovator, but his involvement in Trump's campaign is concerning, and it is essential to focus on using innovation to address critical issues like affordable housing, healthcare, and climate change (41m52s).
• Rewarding innovators is not a problem, but the issue arises when a small number of people accumulate vast wealth, leaving the majority behind (42m46s).
• Donald Trump's visit to McDonald's was a photo opportunity, and it highlighted the issue of the minimum wage, which is a long-standing problem that Trump did not invent (43m2s).
• A reporter asked Donald Trump about raising the federal minimum wage, which is a relevant question given that many American workers, including those at McDonald's, are trying to get by on low hourly wages. (43m28s)
• The federal minimum wage is currently $7.25 an hour, but some workers at McDonald's are making $12 or $13 an hour. (43m49s)
• Trump did not directly answer the question about raising the federal minimum wage, instead praising McDonald's workers. (44m0s)
• It is believed that in the richest country in the world, working 40 hours a week should be enough to avoid living in poverty. (44m6s)
• A proposed solution is to increase the federal minimum wage to $17 an hour, which would help but not solve all economic problems for working-class people. (44m15s)

Response to attacks (44m25s)

• The criticism of owning three houses and being worth $2 million is addressed, with the explanation that most of the wealth comes from writing books, including two best-selling books, and that the wealth is modest compared to other famous politicians (44m25s).
• The three residences include a middle-class house in Burlington, Vermont, a home in Washington, D.C. for work as a United States Senator, and a summer camp on Lake Champlain, which is also modest (44m58s).
• The increase in wealth from $11,100 to $2 million has not changed the ability to relate to the working class, as growing up in a working-class family has had a significant impact on politics (46m7s).
• The wealth has eliminated economic stress, allowing for not worrying about paying bills, going to the doctor, or financial disasters, which is a significant relief (47m3s).
• Efforts are made to not get separated from ordinary people and their struggles, including working hard for and with working-class people, being chairman of the committee dealing with labor issues, and being involved in dozens of strikes (47m27s).
• Money cannot buy happiness, but it can provide relief from worrying about basic needs like food, healthcare, and emergencies, which is a significant lift off one's shoulders (47m52s).
• Having enough wealth to not worry about healthcare, emergencies, and basic needs is a luxury that allows for a different perspective on spending and priorities (48m23s).
• The relief from economic stress has changed the way of thinking about prices and spending, allowing for a more carefree approach to everyday expenses (48m31s).
• The most significant benefit of having money is not having to worry about basic needs, allowing for peace of mind and the ability to focus on work and other priorities (49m5s).

AOC and progressive politics (49m22s)

• The progressive caucus within the Democratic party has grown significantly, with almost 100 members in the House of Representatives, led by Pramila Jayapal, and featuring prominent figures such as Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez and Ilhan Omar, many of whom are young, women, people of color, and from working-class backgrounds (49m51s).
• The struggle within the Democratic party is between the corporate wing, which relies heavily on funding from wealthy individuals and large corporations, and the progressive wing, which aims to represent the needs of working-class people (50m27s).
• The corporate wing's influence has hindered the party's ability to effectively address issues such as healthcare, minimum wage, housing, and taxation, leading to widespread anger among working-class people (50m46s).
• This anger has contributed to Trump's political success, as he has been able to tap into the frustration of working-class people who feel that the Democrats have not responded effectively to their concerns (51m12s).
• The future of the Democratic party is uncertain, with a struggle underway between those who want the party to represent the working class and those who want it to remain corporately dominated (51m33s).
• A decision was made not to run in the 2024 presidential election, as it would have split the Democratic party and potentially led to a Trump victory, instead choosing to support Biden and other progressive candidates (51m58s).
• The goal is to prevent a candidate like Donald Trump from becoming president and to pave the way for future populist and progressive candidates (52m46s).
• There is hope for future candidates who will champion the progressive cause and effectively represent the needs of working-class people (52m52s).
• Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is a young woman from a working-class background who was inspired to run for office by Bernie Sanders' presidential campaign, and she successfully ran on a progressive working-class program, taking on a powerful opponent in the Democratic party, Joe Crowley, with a strong grassroots effort (53m9s).
• Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is liked for her progressive stance, intelligence, charisma, and ability to relate to people, which is essential for a politician, and she has helped create the Green New Deal concept, advocated for jobs in transforming the energy system, and supported Medicare for all and workers' rights (53m51s).
• Bernie Sanders' most powerful enduring impact on American politics is not a singular event, but rather his accomplishments as mayor, US senator, and chairman of the budget committee, including helping write the American Rescue plan, which reduced childhood poverty, kept hospitals and colleges going, and helped people get vaccinated during the COVID-19 pandemic (54m56s).
• Bernie Sanders has shown that his ideas, such as raising the minimum wage, healthcare for all, and a fair tax system, are widely supported, and his presidential campaign has made people realize that these ideas are not extreme, but rather popular and worth considering (55m35s).
• The establishment does not like Bernie Sanders' ideas and tries to maintain the status quo by telling people that the world is the way it is and will always be, but his campaign has shown that people do have power and can create change by running an outsider campaign and taking on the establishment (56m19s).
• Bernie Sanders came close to winning and actually won 23 states, demonstrating the viability of ideas supported by working-class people and young individuals. (56m51s)
• The campaign showed that winning with these ideas is possible, and this concept will resonate for decades to come. (57m2s)
• The movement inspired dozens of candidates who have won seats in the House of Representatives, city councils, and state legislatures. (57m7s)

Mortality (57m13s)

• Many people, especially those in the working class, experience worries about getting sick and the finiteness of life, but also face concerns about their own mortality. (57m16s)
• At 83 years old, thoughts about one's own mortality become more prominent, but the fear is not of death itself, rather of infirmity and losing physical or mental abilities. (57m30s)
• A personal experience with a heart attack five years ago made it clear how one's body can fail, and this realization evokes compassion for people struggling with health issues in nursing homes. (57m48s)
• The concern is not about dying, as it is an inevitable part of life, but rather about the challenges that come with aging, such as losing physical agility or mental sharpness. (58m13s)
• Despite these concerns, maintaining a sharp mind and a sense of humility is essential, and it is possible to retain these qualities even at an advanced age. (58m28s)
• The hope is that future candidates will continue to fight for justice and carry on the legacy of those who have been involved in the political process. (59m5s)

Hope for the future (59m20s)

• Despite the presence of wars, divisiveness, ugliness, poverty, and climate change, there is hope for the future of the country and the world, as people from diverse backgrounds are coming together to strive for a better America (59m21s).
• A rally in the agricultural area of California, where thousands of people from different racial and ethnic backgrounds gathered to make America a better country, was a particularly inspiring moment (59m50s).
• The campaign trail has shown that there are many great and beautiful people who are not interested in becoming billionaires, but rather in improving life for others in the country (1h0m20s).
• Visiting Native American reservations, factories, and every state in the country has allowed for the opportunity to see many wonderful people and be inspired by their optimism (1h0m40s).
• There is a growing dissatisfaction with corporate media, not because it's fake news, but because people want to hear calm and in-depth discussions about important issues that are not typically covered (1h1m9s).
• Independent media outlets, such as the Lex Fridman Podcast, are providing a valuable service to the country by offering a platform for meaningful conversations about important issues (1h1m30s).
• The real difference between democracy and oligarchy is poverty and wealth, as stated by Aristotle, highlighting the importance of addressing economic inequality in a democratic society (1h1m58s).