Beyond Dawkins | Jonathan Pageau | EP 496

Coming up (0s)

• A recent conversation about Dawkins is referenced, with Dawkins having expressed a preference for science that enables achievements like landing a spaceship on the moon (10s).
• Dawkins' statement is recalled as dismissive of stories, instead focusing on the kind of science that facilitates predictions and accomplishments (4s).
• An alternative perspective is presented, suggesting that the reasons behind human desires, such as landing a spaceship on the moon, are more interesting and important than the capability to achieve it (22s).

Intro (28s)

• Jonathan Pageau is one of the primary architects of Ark, the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship, which is headquartered in London and has its next conference scheduled for February, aiming to reestablish a narrative of promise, hope, and abundance for the international community (53s).
• Jonathan runs a website and YouTube channel called The Symbolic World, which has a devoted following, and has a new book titled "Jack and the Fallen Giants" that is part of a series of traditional fairy tales told with a modern but not postmodern twist (1m29s).
• The discussion focuses on the issues of perception and categorization, particularly in relation to the Dawkins discussion, and explores the fundamental role that stories play in human cognition, perception, and the unfolding of the world (1m45s).
• The conversation also delves into the topics of identity and subsidiary participation, highlighting the idea that individual identity cannot be conceptualized properly without reference to our embeddedness in higher-order structures such as family, community, and nation (2m16s).
• The concept of subsidiary participation is compared to Jacob's Ladder, which represents a connection to higher-order structures and a sense of unity under a higher power (2m36s).

Fairy tales with a modern - not postmodern - twist (2m45s)

• A new book series called "Tales for Once and Ever" is being published, aiming to present classic fairy tales in a beautiful and celebratory way, taking them back from being used as ideological weapons (3m8s).
• The books in the series are being published independently to maintain total control over their quality and beauty, featuring beautiful illustrations, powerful storytelling, and high-quality binding (3m39s).
• The series includes fairy tales such as "Snow White", "Jack and the Fallen Giants", and "Rapunzel", with plans to publish eight books in total, and the characters will start to cross over into different stories as the series progresses (4m52s).
• The books are available for purchase on the publisher's website, symbolicworld.com, and a mailing list is also available, offering free PDFs of some of the published books (3m53s).
• The goal of the series is to bring the narrative together and tell the stories in a way that is not subject to external control, allowing for a positive and celebratory presentation of the fairy tales (4m1s).
• There are also plans to potentially publish a separate series or book, possibly with a black cover, to address the problem of "The Wolf" in Little Red Riding Hood, but this is not currently part of the main series (4m37s).
• The series aims to celebrate the characters and stories of the fairy tales, and as it progresses, the characters will come together in a kind of "Symphony of the Fairy Tales" (4m58s).

Writing better stories for both children and adults (5m3s)

• The goal is to create stories that can be enjoyed by a wide range of audiences, from four years old to adults, with multiple layers of meaning that can be appreciated at different ages (5m4s).
• In postmodern fairy tales, there are often two levels of reading: one for children and one for adults, but the adult level is often limited to dirty jokes and sexual illusions (5m10s).
• The aim is to create stories with an adult level reading based on insight, which can help grown-ups who heard these stories as children see something new in them by connecting them to ancient myth and the Bible in subtle ways (5m20s).
• These connections should be subtle enough that children won't notice them, but adults can appreciate the deeper meaning (5m36s).
• The story should be enjoyable as an adventure story for children, while also offering a glimpse of something more for adults (5m38s).
• Markers of success, such as money, fame, and power, are discussed, and it's noted that fame in itself is not a bad marker, but not everyone who is famous is useful, and not everyone who isn't famous is useless (5m48s).
• A small percentage of highly successful men are willing to sacrifice everything in pursuit of success, and intervening at the right time can make a difference (6m7s).
• Success is not a destination, but rather a journey, and it integrates the idea of the journey and the destination (6m23s).

Writing stories without propaganda, highlighting what is deeply and timelessly relevant (6m44s)

• The approach to storytelling involves distinguishing it from propaganda by tying the interpretive enterprise into the historical tradition, deeper historical tradition, and even the biological tradition (6m52s).
• Fairy tales contain a pattern of human memory that is beyond ideology, reflecting the very pattern of human attention itself, which is why they can be captivating despite being strange at times (7m57s).
• Staying close to the fairy tale and approaching it in a celebratory way, rather than a cynical or ironic manner, helps to avoid propaganda (8m34s).
• The goal is to dive into the story, celebrate it, and cast light on certain threads and insights that may not have been noticed before, similar to how ancient stories were told (9m12s).
• The approach involves recognizing the central tradition of the story and not deviating from it, while also bringing out relevant threads that may be secretly hidden in the story (9m42s).
• Certain threads in the story can be more relevant at certain times, and the approach involves showing them in a manner that may not be immediately apparent (9m56s).
• For example, in Snow White, the idea of the witch looking into the mirror can be seen as a commentary on the dangers of social media and the obsession with physical attractiveness (10m12s).
• The approach also involves subtly bringing people into awareness of certain themes and ideas, such as the importance of beauty and power, without being explicit (11m2s).
• The use of biblical stories and allusions, such as the Nephilim and the Fallen Angel, can add depth and meaning to the fairy tale without being explicit (11m24s).

“I made a mistake with that with Dawkins,” ancient patterns in symbolism and convergence (11m46s)

• Psychologists developed the concept of convergent validation to determine if a psychological description is real, which involves using multiple measurement techniques to see if they converge on the same phenomenon (12m10s).
• This concept is similar to how humans use their five senses to triangulate on reality from different positions, and it can also be applied to validating propositions through multiple dimensions such as pharmacologically, neurologically, psychologically, and from the perspective of cybernetics and narrative (13m1s).
• This approach distinguishes itself from ideology by being predicated on the idea that there is a reality outside of interpretation that must be consulted when making truth claims (13m34s).
• The postmodern critique that we see the world through a story is accepted, and stories can be seen as a description of the structure through which we see the world (14m5s).
• A mistake was made in understanding this concept, particularly in relation to Dawkins, by thinking about it mathematically and not considering the role of judgment and weighting in making decisions (14m17s).
• The weighting of different factors in decision-making is not always obvious and can be influenced by stories and patterns of attention that are biologically encoded and historically consistent (15m0s).
• Ancient patterns in symbolism and storytelling, such as those found in fairy tales, can be more trustworthy because they have stood the test of time and speak to us directly (15m13s).
• Examples of these patterns can be seen in stories like Pinocchio and Sleeping Beauty, where narrative discontinuities and fantastical elements are accepted by audiences without question (16m9s).
• These patterns suggest that there are structures of attention and memory that are biologically encoded in humans, which can influence how we perceive and understand the world (16m43s).

Large language models are networks of probabilities, levels of cognition (16m56s)

• Large language models have provided an existence proof of the symbolic realm by calculating statistical probabilities between words, phrases, and sentences, creating a network of probabilities that map word to word, phrase to phrase, and sentence to sentence (16m58s).
• This network of probabilities is based on billions of mathematical calculations, which are essentially elements in a regression equation, and map out the statistical relationship between words (17m32s).
• The same principle can be applied to images, suggesting that human cognition has a propositional level, which is word-based, and an image level, which is closer to action, with statistical relationships between images (17m58s).
• The image level of cognition is a more foreign concept, but it can be seen in the way images evoke other images, such as the association between a witch, a cat, and a broom, which is an example of the symbolic Overton (18m30s).
• This image level of cognition is more akin to the realm of dreams, where symbolic associations play a key role, and it's fascinating that we now have a mathematical model of the symbolic world (19m1s).
• The existence of the symbolic realm is indisputable, and large language models have provided a key to understanding it, which may be related to Jung's concept of the Collective Unconscious (17m51s).

Comparative storytelling: historical truth and spontaneous creation (19m14s)

• Comparative storytelling and comparative religion reveal certain patterns that vary but also converge across different cultures, despite the challenge of finding historical connections between them (19m14s).
• The convergence of patterns across cultures raises questions about the need for historical connections to explain their similarities, and even if such connections exist, it is necessary to explain why these patterns persisted in both cultures (19m32s).
• The debate between the movement of ideas and their spontaneous generation is ongoing, but there are many examples that suggest spontaneous generation, such as the universal association of headdresses with status and power (19m52s).
• The use of headdresses as a symbol of status is a universal phenomenon across cultures, likely due to the way human attention is drawn to the face and eyes, and the addition of ornaments to the head signifies attractiveness and high status (20m15s).
• The association of headdresses with attractiveness and high status is also linked to the celestial bodies of the sun and moon, which are considered the most attractive features in the sky, and the wearer of a high-status headdress is often depicted on coins, symbolizing their dominance in the social landscape (20m42s).
• The use of headdresses and their association with status and power can be understood through human experience and the way people perceive and interact with each other, rather than solely through historical connections (21m7s).

Memes: trivial examples of parasitism, universal symbolism in biology (21m12s)

• An effort was made to explain to Richard Dawkins that the concept of replication and conservation can be applied to human memes, but he was not receptive to the idea, instead viewing memes as parasitic and only invoking trivial examples (21m13s).
• A universal human gesture, such as shaking hands or showing empty hands, can be explained as a symbol that has emerged universally through culture, and its emergence can be attributed to the fact that people who were good at doing it were more likely to survive (22m1s).
• The Baldwin effect, which describes how cultural phenomena can become closer to biology, was discussed as a possible explanation for the emergence of universal human gestures, but Dawkins seemed to be unfamiliar with the concept (22m43s).
• Data brokers collect and sell digital footprints, including browsing history, online searches, and location data, which can be used to create detailed profiles and target individuals with ads, and even sell information to government agencies (23m12s).
• To protect online privacy, using a VPN such as ExpressVPN can hide a device's unique IP address, making it virtually impossible for data brokers to monitor and track online activity (23m46s).
• ExpressVPN encrypts 100% of network traffic, making it easy to use and protecting sensitive data from hackers, and can be used seamlessly across multiple devices (24m4s).
• The idea of memes and archetypes has echoes elsewhere, and it's a radical concept that, when grasped, allows ideas to live in abstraction, compete, and undergo a process of life and death, substituting actual death with an abstract testing process (24m49s).
• This concept is key to understanding what makes humans distinct, as it enables them to substitute different approaches to resource management and transform their nature without dying, setting them apart from other animal populations (25m22s).
• The Malthusian model, which views human biology as a zero-sum game, is incorrect, as it assumes a finite resource and a mindless consumption of that resource, leading to expiration, whereas humans can adapt and transform their approach to resource management (25m33s).
• The Malthusian law does not apply to humans, except in cases where societies degenerate, and there is no evidence to support its universality (26m27s).
• Humans' ability to produce and compete with abstract ideas, and to transform their nature without dying, makes them a distinct kind of creature (26m25s).

Hierarchies of being and the influence of narratives on the social landscape (26m39s)

• Different beings with coherence exist at various levels, from cells and systems within an individual to higher-order beings like the social body, with each level having its own structures and coherences that join together to form a larger whole (26m44s).
• The concept of incarceration, for example, serves to preserve the coherence of the social body by reducing the capacity of individuals to reproduce and cause harm, thereby maintaining the higher-order being of the social body (27m25s).
• The idea of the Baldwin effect suggests that a story or narrative can transform the social landscape, influencing the hierarchical arrangement of people within it, and ultimately shifting the reproductive landscape by selecting for individuals who are more affine to the dominant story (28m19s).
• High-status individuals, particularly men, have a greater reproductive capacity, and the dominance of a particular story can lead to the selection of people who are more likely to act out that story, thereby transforming the social hierarchy and reproductive landscape (28m44s).
• The Baldwin effect is a process by which a story or narrative can influence the evolution of a population by selecting for individuals who are more affine to the dominant story, and this process can occur at multiple levels, from the individual to the social body (29m5s).
• The materialist reductionist perspective assumes that there is a level of perception independent of action and goal-directed motivation, but this is not supported by neurophysiology, as all perception is associated with motivation and action (30m1s).
• All perceived unities are actually multiplicities in and of themselves, and this is evident at multiple levels, from the composition of protons to the social body, highlighting the complexity and interconnectedness of reality (30m27s).
• The idea that there is no fundamental level of reality, but rather a series of multiplicities and complexities, challenges the materialist reductionist perspective and suggests that reality is more nuanced and multifaceted than previously thought (30m45s).

The reality of dragons, uniting metas (31m0s)

• The concept of dragons and lions was discussed, with Dawkins expressing disinterest in the reality of dragons as they are metaphorical beings, whereas lions are literal beings (31m9s).
• It was argued that every category is a meta category that transcends the parts that make it, and that all narratives are united in a meta narrative (31m35s).
• The idea of postmodernism, which rejects the notion of a uniting meta narrative, was discussed, with the argument that there is always a higher level of organization or narrative (31m47s).
• The example of cells, organelles, and molecules was used to illustrate how there is always a lower level of organization, but also a higher level of organization or narrative (32m3s).
• The concept of perception as a narrative was discussed, with neuroscientist Carl Friston stating that every perception is a micro narrative (32m25s).
• The discovery of the narrative nature of perception and reality was discussed as a challenge to empiricism, which relies on the idea of raw and basic sense data (32m44s).
• The development of large language models, which learn through reinforcement and are derivative of human intelligence, was cited as evidence for the narrative nature of reality (33m16s).
• The idea that human care and attention are necessary for the development of these models, and that they are associated with the concept of sin or missing the target, was discussed (33m49s).
• The book "We Who Wrestle with God" was mentioned, which argues that meta narratives are associated with the transpersonal world and are bounded by material, biological, social, and psychological factors (34m14s).
• The idea that these meta narratives are functional in the actual world and are bounded by factors such as memory, attention, and biological needs was discussed (34m41s).
• The importance of care and attention in shaping our narratives and memories was emphasized, with the argument that we care about and remember things that are important to us, such as threats, food, and relationships (35m13s).

How Moses got us to the moon - more than the science (35m43s)

• Dawkins prioritized the science and technology that enabled humans to land on the moon, but the more interesting question is why humans wanted to land on the moon in the first place (35m47s).
• The idea of going out and exploring new lands is a common theme in ancient stories, such as the story of Ulysses or St. Brendan, and is also reflected in the act of planting a flag or a vertical pole to mark a new center of identity (36m45s).
• The flag planted on the moon can be seen as a symbol of a new center of identity, similar to the staff of Moses, which signifies the joining of something with identity (36m53s).
• The technology that enabled humans to land on the moon is not the only important factor, but also the social contract and education system that produced it, which is rooted in the Judeo-Christian landscape and the idea that there is a pattern fundamental to the material world (37m39s).
• The American social contract, which is based on the idea that certain truths are self-evident, played a significant role in the moon landing, and this idea is rooted in the Judeo-Christian tradition (38m11s).
• The notion that there is a pattern fundamental to the material world is a deep narrative insistence that is reflected in the idea that categories are not just mere collections of parts, but are also related to something higher (38m38s).
• The concept of forms or purposes is not just a product of Platonic thinking, but is also reflected in the idea that categories are not just mere collections of parts, but are also related to something higher, and is supported by the thinking of saints like St. Maximus the Confessor (39m33s).
• The idea that forms or purposes exist is not just a product of abstract thinking, but is also reflected in the way that humans perceive the world, and is rooted in the idea that these forms bind multiplicity together and give things a reason to exist (39m49s).

Jacob’s ladder: when you move into the ineffable… (40m7s)

• Jacob's Ladder is a structure that fades into the ineffable, and as one moves down into the material, they take things apart into their subsidiary meta categories, eventually running into potential at the bottom, and the ineffable Divine at the top (40m8s).
• Jacob had a dream of Jacob's Ladder, which is often portrayed as a spiral with angels moving up and down, symbolizing infinite upward movement with the ineffable Divine at its pinnacle (40m45s).
• Before having this dream, Jacob decided to leave his pathological mother and reorient himself, marking a transformation in his life (41m7s).
• Jacob's previous aim was to betray his brother and father, but he came to understand that this aim was inappropriate and decided to transform, having a new vision of infinite potential (41m49s).
• To achieve a new aim, one must make sacrifices, including the sacrifice of the previous aim and the rejection of things that don't fit with the new aim (42m9s).
• The concept of sacrifice is also seen in the yam kipur sacrifice in scripture, which involves two aspects: removing that which is sinful and offering up the best part to purify the being (42m30s).
• When pursuing an aim, one must reject things that don't fit and offer up their efforts to the aim, which is beyond themselves, allowing for the emergence of higher meaning (42m53s).
• This process of sacrifice and offering is essential for achieving a higher aim and creating a sense of purpose and direction in life (43m28s).
• People often participate in activities for a higher purpose, such as taking an exam to pass a course, which leads to getting a degree, a job, and eventually building a lasting future, establishing a family, and being a responsible citizen (43m47s).
• This participation in higher aims is part of a pyramidal structure, where the highest possible aim, such as towards the ineffable, imbues all micro-activities with rich purpose, joy, and peace (44m27s).
• When one's actions are embedded in a higher good, they become happy to do them, as they are part of something better (45m9s).
• The concept of the ineffable Transcendent Unity is identified with the God of one's ancestors, as seen in Jacob's story, and is the highest aim that one can strive for (45m21s).
• However, people can miss their aim, such as when someone becomes extremely wealthy but realizes that wealth is not the highest purpose, leading to a choice to either use their wealth for higher purposes or fall into a kind of emptiness (45m42s).
• Even in conversations with people like Dawkins, it's possible to help them see that the hierarchy of aims is objective and not arbitrary, and that there are clear right and wrong actions (46m31s).
• The Pre-born Network of clinics is an example of an organization taking clear positive action to protect vulnerable babies and support their mothers, using a comprehensive approach that includes ultrasound technology and ongoing support for up to 2 years (46m51s).
• Pre-born provides various services, including diapers, car seats, and vital counseling services, to support genuine care for individuals in need (47m16s).
• The organization's work aims to change lives for generations to come, making a real difference through positive action (47m26s).
• A donation of $28 can help empower a mother to choose life, and making a donation is simple by dialing pound 250 and saying the keyword "baby" or visiting pre-born.org (47m32s).
• For those with the means to make a bigger impact, a leadership gift of $115,000 can be made to place an ultrasound machine in a needed women's center, helping to save countless lives for years to come (47m43s).
• All gifts to pre-born are tax deductible, and the organization maintains a four-star charity rating (47m51s).

The true hero myth is implicit in the structure of being itself - you can embody it (48m6s)

• The hierarchy of upward aim can be expanded, with the desire to be a good person, husband, or father being nested inside the hero myth, and the ultimate hero myth is laid out in the story of the Christian passion (48m6s).
• The classical Christian insistence is that the pattern of the hero myth is implicit in the Old Testament writings and in the structure of being itself, as indicated by the idea that the logos created the world (48m51s).
• The logos that was incarnate in Christ is the origin of the world, and this story contains the pattern of the highest form of being that yields all other forms of being (49m2s).
• The Christian passion story can be seen as the archetypal tragedy, with the most tragic possible outcome being the worst possible demise of the least deserving person, which is played out in the story of Christ's death (49m50s).
• The story of Christ's death represents the worst possible things that can happen to a person, including betrayal, pain, humiliation, and shame, and the question is what attitude one should bring to bear on this reality (51m27s).
• The answer in the story is faith, predicated not only on acceptance but also on welcoming, as seen in the Book of Job, and the contrary position of bitter resentment and hatred of life is not a viable alternative (52m2s).
• The story of Cain illustrates the consequences of bitter resentment and anger, which can transform into murderousness, rejection of the ideal, and a genocidal proclivity (52m27s).
• The Christian passion suggests that the deepest radical acceptance of the most painful preconditions for existence is the precondition for life more abundant, and there is no alternative to this viewpoint (52m57s).

Job’s decision to choose faith despite suffering is profoundly important (53m20s)

• Job's decision to choose faith despite suffering is profoundly important, as he refuses to lose faith in his essential goodness and the essential goodness of being, despite his mortal inadequacies and catastrophic suffering (53m44s).
• Job justifies his decision by acknowledging his own ignorance, stating that he is not in a position to be the final arbiter of the value of being, and therefore accepts its essential goodness on principle (54m7s).
• The counterposition to Job's decision would be that nothing means anything, which is considered a foolish position, or aiming downward (54m30s).
• Suffering is part of existence, and the story of the Garden of Eden explains the origin of death and suffering, highlighting the gap between the fact that humans suffer and the notion that this is wrong (54m51s).
• The perception of this gap is what leads people to complain about suffering, and even atheists who reject the idea of a higher power often do so because they can perceive the difference between their ideal of how things should be and the reality of what they experience (55m54s).
• The fact that people are outraged by suffering, such as bone cancer in children, implies that they have faith in a transcendent moral order, which suggests that they believe things should be a certain way, even if they do not believe in a higher power (56m28s).
• This outrage is inconsistent with a value-free, scientific view of the world, which would see bone cancer as simply a different phenomenon with different predictable outcomes (56m40s).

Pride, truth claims, and affordances (57m0s)

• The fundamental sin of both Adam and Eve is one of Pride, as they are tempted by Lucifer the serpent to become as Gods, with Eve desiring to establish the moral order subjectively and Adam exceeding in his prideful weakness (57m18s).
• Adam and Eve serve as the archetypes of male and female, with Adam as the Namer and the subduer, and Eve as the help meet who brings things to his attention that he's left outside of the ordered structure (58m12s).
• Each of these patterns has its associated sin, and suffering and death enter the world with sin, although it's unclear how much suffering is brought about by misaligned pride and the desire to usurp (58m33s).
• If humans aimed upward unceasingly and were perfect as Christ calls upon his followers to be, it's unclear what would become of suffering and death (59m6s).
• The idea in the gospels that Christ's radical exception of the terrible preconditions for being produced the victory over death and evil is an interesting concept (59m21s).
• The more one opens themselves up to the realities of the Dark Side of Life, Death, and malevolence, the more capable they are of dealing with it, although the ultimate extent of this is unknown (59m40s).
• The concept of the resurrection is a difficult one for secularists to understand, but it's a topic that needs to be discussed (1h0m10s).
• The patterns that inform the structure of reality are the same patterns that allow us to notice and identify things as having existence and value (1h0m36s).
• These patterns have been refined over time, and they constrain reality in some ways, making the idea of the Resurrection and the notion of the image of God not bothersome (1h1m1s).
• Life becomes abundant and real when one is willing to give up their prideful holding on to something and die for all intents and purposes, as seen in the Old Testament with Abraham offering up his son, and this pattern of reality is what matters, not the bottom-up explanation for it (1h1m23s).
• The idea that someone represents the pattern of reality perfectly, such as Jesus resurrecting, is what is important, not the physical or mechanical ways in which it happened, and what it affords is what makes it real (1h2m3s).
• The concept of affordance, as used by Dawkins to define the reality of quantum mechanics, is also applicable to the Christian story, but it's an affordance of everything that we find valuable and worth pursuing, and binds our societies together (1h2m27s).
• It's becoming more preposterous to believe that the Christian story didn't happen than to believe that it did, especially when considering the implications of our civilization being based on a lie, and the fact that Jesus' disciples were killed, imprisoned, tortured, and died holding on to the story (1h2m53s).
• The idea that the disciples lied about the crucifixion, resurrection, or Virgin birth is problematic, as it implies that our civilization is based on a lie, and this is a big deal, especially when considering the post-modern Marxist critique that our culture is based on a lie told for power and prestige (1h3m20s).
• The Christian story handles the problem of people lying for power and prestige in its very structure, as Jesus' disciples were killed, imprisoned, tortured, and died holding on to the story, making it unlikely that they would have lied to gain prestige and power (1h4m16s).
• The fact that Jesus' disciples were willing to die for the story they believed in is a strong argument against the idea that they lied about the events of the Christian story (1h4m42s).
• The idea that everyone will be rich and famous is not the ultimate goal, and instead, people may end up being horribly tortured and killed, with others cheering, which is a concept found in the Christian story (1h5m2s).
• The people who witnessed significant events in the Christian story did not gain anything from them (1h5m14s).
• The habit of checking Twitter first thing in the morning, particularly to see what President Trump had shared overnight, is mentioned as a past phenomenon (1h5m22s).
• A collection of poems compiled from President Donald J. Trump's most prolific tweets, transformed into poetic form, is available at dailywire.com (1h5m31s).

The capacity of death as a mechanism for repair (1h5m50s)

• Death serves as a purification mechanism, allowing damaged cells to be removed and preventing carcinogenic growth, and this process is essential for staying alive, as it maintains a balance between life and death (1h5m58s).
• When the reparative process of death goes wrong, it can lead to complete death, and optimizing one's capacity for death could have significant effects on overall well-being and thriving (1h6m32s).
• Fasting and certain diets, such as the carnivore diet, have been shown to mimic fasting and promote the repair of damaged tissue by scavenging it when the body is in a fasting state (1h6m44s).
• Cancer is a disease where death disappears, as cancer cells are hypothetically immortal and do not die like normal cells, leading to an imbalance in the body's natural processes (1h7m17s).
• The concept of death is also explored in the Adam and Eve story, where death enters the world with sin, and the curse placed on Adam, Eve, and the serpent represents the excessive play between the tendency of dust and the imposition of unified order (1h7m59s).
• The curse on the serpent, woman, and man illustrates the imbalance caused by the misalignment of their aims, resulting in a cycle of excessive order and chaos, as seen in the consequences of their actions, such as pain in reproduction and the need to rule over the ground (1h8m39s).
• The story of Adam and Eve highlights the importance of balance and the consequences of disrupting it, drawing parallels with the effects of cancer and dissolution in the body (1h10m2s).

Effortful toil - the spirit of Adam vs. the spirit of Cain (1h10m4s)

• One of the curses God delivers to Adam is that he will have to work and his life won't be effortless, but rather an effortful toil, as a consequence of his actions (1h10m7s).
• A common experience is that young men often feel that certain jobs are beneath them and become resentful, but when they start putting in effort and striving to do their best, they can achieve success and recognition (1h10m31s).
• The idea that we're made in the image of God is a reflection of the idea that our spirit hovers above the water of potential, and we're surrounded by a landscape of potential, regardless of our circumstances (1h11m30s).
• When we orient our aim upward and strive to extract order from that potential, our effort becomes meaningful, and there are no lowly jobs, as every task can be done with purpose and dignity (1h12m5s).
• The Christian message emphasizes that suffering can be a means to a higher end, and when we suffer for a purpose, it can cease to be suffering in the way we understand it, and can even be described as Glory (1h12m43s).
• The idea is that God took death upon himself to make being possible, and this sacrifice is at the foundation of the world, and we're called to make similar sacrifices, albeit on a smaller scale, by striving to do our best and not compromising our highest aim (1h13m22s).
• The image of the Martyr, who is willing to die without compromising their highest aim, serves as an example of what we're supposed to do at a small level, by being willing to make sacrifices and strive for our goals (1h13m36s).
• Sacrificing immediate pleasures or even one's life for a higher purpose can ultimately lead to gaining life, even if it appears to be a loss from an outside perspective (1h13m52s).
• Being oriented towards a higher purpose is similar to being a father, where one takes care of something that might die, but the weight of that responsibility is not given up (1h14m9s).
• Research indicates that people with children are often less happy than those without, but this may be due to flawed happiness measures (1h14m13s).
• The joys of being a parent, for example, have nothing to do with superficial pleasures, and people who take on such responsibilities with the right perspective are less attracted to frivolous activities (1h14m43s).
• Those who give themselves to roles with responsibility and the right perspective may enjoy moments of frivolity, but they are not slaves to them, as they have something better and more meaningful to focus on (1h15m0s).
• Having a higher purpose and responsibility can make one realize that they have something better to do, even if it is difficult, and this can bring a sense of fulfillment (1h15m10s).

Why not drink? Moral transformation and replacing the kick from drugs (1h15m16s)

• The literature on alcoholism reveals that there is no evidence that treatment centers are effective in curing alcoholism, and the most reliable cure appears to be religious transformation (1h15m16s).
• Alcohol is a highly effective substance that provides opiate effects, facilitates social bonding, reduces anxiety, and has psychomotor stimulant effects, making it a difficult habit to break for those who are genetically predisposed to it (1h15m36s).
• The question for those who struggle with alcoholism is not why they drink, but why they should stop, and the answer for those who undergo a moral transformation is that they have found something better to do (1h16m3s).
• A moral transformation can be effective in overcoming addiction because it provides a sense of purpose and meaning that reduces anxiety and provides a pharmacological substitute for the effects of the drug (1h16m11s).
• When an individual's existence is related to a higher order of meaning, their anxiety declines, and each of their actions carries a sense of significance that provides a psychomotor kick similar to the effects of alcohol (1h16m27s).
• This sense of purpose can transform the way an individual experiences difficulties and challenges, making them more manageable and even insignificant in the face of a higher aim (1h17m19s).
• The transformation of an individual's aim and purpose can have a profound impact on their experience of suffering and difficulty, making them more bearable and even insignificant over time (1h17m27s).

Abraham and Isaac: the reality of war and human sacrifice (1h17m36s)

• The story of Abraham in the Bible is discussed, specifically the chapter where Abraham is promised a son, Isaac, and the subsequent request by God to sacrifice Isaac as an offering. (1h17m36s)
• This story is often cited by atheists as an example of the cruelty of God in the Old Testament, but it can also be seen as a story about the nature of true purpose and life. (1h18m17s)
• The idea is that if something is completely owned or possessed, it becomes infected and cannot afford true purpose and life, and must be given up in order to be truly real. (1h19m2s)
• This concept is illustrated through the example of raising a child, where the parent knows they will eventually have to give the child away, whether it be through marriage or independence. (1h19m22s)
• The only way for something to be truly real is if it is offered up towards something beyond itself, and this is a structural argument that applies at every level of being. (1h19m52s)
• This idea is echoed in the words of Jesus, who said that those who try to save their life will lose it, and those who are willing to lose their life will gain it. (1h20m5s)
• The concept of offering something up towards a higher purpose is also illustrated through the example of a car, where the individual parts must give themselves to the purpose of the car in order for it to function properly. (1h20m22s)
• Similarly, when a person buys a car, they can either fetishize it or use it for higher purposes, such as visiting loved ones, and this is the proper relationship with material possessions. (1h20m56s)
• The story of Abraham and Isaac is seen as a demonstration of this concept, where Abraham must give up his son in order to truly understand the nature of God's promise and the purpose of his life. (1h21m4s)
• The concept of sacrifice is essential in achieving a higher purpose, as seen in the story of Abraham and Isaac, where Abraham had to give up his son to something that transcends him and his son, and in return, he would get him back, illustrating that sacrifice is necessary for growth and improvement (1h21m17s).
• This idea is also applicable to everyday life, such as when fixing roads in a city, where the person doing the job should be motivated by a higher purpose rather than personal interest, resulting in a better outcome (1h21m33s).
• The sacrificial aspect of offering up something is a practical concept that can be seen in various aspects of life, including the role of a mother, who must learn to let go of her child and offer them to a higher purpose, rather than holding on to them out of selfishness (1h22m11s).
• According to psychoanalysts, including Anna Freud, a good mother must necessarily fail, meaning she must learn to let go of her child and allow them to grow and develop independently (1h22m21s).
• Human beings have the longest dependency period of any creature, which means that the bond between a mother and child is incredibly powerful, but can also go terribly wrong if the mother infantilizes her child and fails to offer them to a higher purpose (1h22m40s).
• When a mother fails to let go of her child, it can lead to a devouring or "eatable" situation, where the child is unable to develop and grow, and may even become suicidal, resulting in a catastrophic and chaotic household (1h23m20s).
• This type of situation is often seen in clinical practice, where mothers may use guilt or manipulation to keep their children from leaving, resulting in children who are afraid to leave and are crippled in body and soul (1h23m56s).
• The structure of the sacrifice of Abraham and Isaac is one that is experienced in everyday life, but often goes unrecognized, and can be seen in situations such as war, where a higher order being or nation asks people to offer their children for a higher purpose (1h24m52s).
• The concept of human sacrifice is explored in the context of higher-order existence, where the sacrifice of individuals is seen as a means to preserve the existence of a nation or group, as exemplified by the story of Abraham and Isaac, and the willingness to sacrifice children in times of war, such as World War II (1h25m15s).
• The idea of human sacrifice is not unique to the biblical story, as ancient cultures practiced human sacrifice to bind groups together and demonstrate their willingness to offer something up for the greater good (1h27m32s).
• The story of Abraham and Isaac is seen as a turning point, where Abraham does not ultimately sacrifice his son, indicating a shift towards a more abstract understanding of sacrifice, where the pattern of sacrifice can be duplicated psychologically and spiritually, rather than requiring a physical sacrifice (1h28m23s).
• This shift towards a more abstract understanding of sacrifice is seen as a way to move beyond the need for physical human sacrifice, allowing individuals to sacrifice at a psychological or spiritual level, rather than requiring a physical sacrifice (1h28m51s).
• The concept of sacrifice is also explored in the context of mimetic structure, where human sacrifice is seen as a means to preserve groups and stabilize the future, and the idea that every act is a sacrificial act is discussed (1h26m52s).
• The example of the Assassins in the Middle East is given as an illustration of the power of human sacrifice to bind groups together, where individuals would willingly sacrifice themselves to demonstrate their commitment to the group (1h27m51s).
• The idea that human sacrifice is not just a ridiculous superstition, but rather a powerful force that can be harnessed to achieve a higher purpose, is explored, and the story of Abraham is seen as a key moment in the development of this understanding (1h28m19s).
• The foundation of reality is based on infinite goodness and love, which is the underlying structure of the universe (1h29m7s).
• If humans were able to connect directly to this infinite goodness, there would be no need for sacrifices, wars, or the literal sacrifice of children (1h29m14s).
• The structure of the story of human existence is shaped by this underlying reality, resulting in the need for sacrifices and conflicts (1h29m26s).
• This understanding is part of a broader exploration of the nature of reality and human existence (1h29m29s).

What binds us together on the deepest levels (1h29m30s)

• The concept of sacrifice is explored as the foundation of the world and community, where individuals must give up themselves to be part of a community, which constitutes maturity (1h29m46s).
• This sacrificial process is seen as a pattern that establishes a proper covenant with what's highest, and the Bible continually explores this pattern (1h30m16s).
• The idea that there's nothing higher than the individual is seen as a problem, as all structures are higher-order structures, and there's no reason to put a limit on the upward pattern of organization (1h30m43s).
• Secularists and atheists often try to find a cap on the meta-narrative, where it ends at the level of their desire, allowing them to do whatever they want (1h31m2s).
• This is related to the idea of power and the need to compel others to go along with one's whim, as seen in the philosophy of Michel Foucault (1h31m22s).
• The structures that bind reality together at every level don't stop at the human level, but go up, and can be seen in the way humans bind together in a way analogous to the human body (1h32m6s).
• The idea that these structures stop at the human level is seen as an indication of the pathological effect of Protestant Enlightenment individualism, which assumes the individual human being is the capstone (1h32m24s).
• The individual, properly construed, is not subordinate to higher-order structures, but is the harmony that exists at all levels simultaneously, up to the highest aim (1h32m50s).
• One's identity is composed of various roles, such as being a husband, father, and citizen, which are parts of their identity (1h33m11s).
• The concept of extended identity is crucial, as it becomes more solid and stable when it is higher and more comprehensive, encompassing various aspects of an individual's life (1h33m17s).
• The loss of superordinate identities leads to a collapse into multiplicity and chaos, resulting in misery and tyranny, as people are left with only their individual whims and the Hobbesian state of nature (1h33m26s).
• Postmodernists argue that this state of nature is the only reality, but this perspective is flawed, as even chimpanzee troops with higher-order structures based on power are unstable and prone to chaos (1h34m16s).
• Research by Frans de Waal has shown that the true alpha males among chimpanzees are those who are hospitable and reciprocal, and they often maintain social order without being the largest or most powerful individuals (1h34m26s).
• The concept of love is essential in understanding the importance of binding with others and joining higher-order bodies to fully exist as a person (1h34m51s).
• The idea of the mystical Body of Christ represents a paradoxical balance between the one and the many, where individuals can come to exist more fully by giving themselves away to others (1h35m16s).
• The Trinity is the ultimate image of this balance, with the persons of the Trinity existing in infinite love and emptying themselves in each other (1h35m23s).
• As individuals, people can strive for a lower level of this infinite love, characterized by the desire for all things to flourish and for others to flourish (1h35m50s).
• This desire for the flourishing of others is the key to finding one's own flourishing, and it is essential for forming meaningful relationships and covenants with others (1h36m6s).
• The concept of covenant-making involves telling a story that makes others think and imagine a shared reality, as seen in the work of PJ, who observed that cooperative games based on voluntary ascent can outcompete power-based systems (1h36m16s).
• PJ's research showed that power-based systems waste effort and are ultimately less effective than cooperative systems, highlighting the importance of voluntary cooperation and mutual ascent (1h36m55s).
• People are bound together not only by manipulation of negative emotions, but also by hope, which is indistinguishable from psychomotor reward and incentive reward, the same system activated by cocaine, and is part of the exploratory system, providing primary incentive reward and pleasure (1h37m16s).
• When individuals voluntarily assent to a structure, positive emotion pushes them forward, increasing motivation, and the best possible deal is one that they are thrilled with, which is not a zero-sum vision (1h37m39s).
• This non-zero-sum vision is experienced by people when they are in a team with others and genuinely want the best for each other, creating a mutual desire for the best outcome (1h37m49s).
• This concept is applied in real-life scenarios, such as being part of a team where individuals want the best for each other and work together to achieve the best outcome (1h37m58s).

The Alliance for Responsible Citizenship, “getting the story right” (1h38m3s)

• A recent meeting of the Advisory Board of the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship (ARC) took place in Washington, bringing together a diverse group of people who may not align on all issues but share a common goal of making progress on the things they care about (1h38m3s).
• The meeting was characterized by a sense of cooperation and a "surprising dance of people moving together" towards a higher-order purpose, despite some discussion and friction (1h38m25s).
• One of the main aims of ARC is to "get the story right" and counter the dominant narrative of a dismal, anti-human story being pushed in the environmental sphere and other areas (1h39m16s).
• This narrative includes anti-natal attitudes towards families, the demolition of sex and relationships, and a generally negative view of the world (1h39m31s).
• However, the existence of this narrative has also created an opportunity for people who believe in the goodness of the world and the possibility of people coming together to join forces and work towards a more positive vision (1h39m51s).
• The Alliance for Responsible Citizenship has been making progress in bringing people together, with successful meetings in Germany, Australia, and other locations, and a growing network of supporters, including former Prime Ministers of Australia (1h40m30s).
• The group's convention last year was well-received, and an upcoming meeting in London is expected to draw 4,500 people, indicating a shift in what is considered allowable discourse (1h41m35s).
• The Democrats did not use climate apocalypticism to scare people during the election cycle, which might be attributed to the influence of people associated with Ark, such as Bjorn Lomborg, who has been a breath of fresh air on the topic of human beings and the future. (1h41m47s)
• The discussion covered the topics of books, category, and story, and how the structure of categories is related to the structure of perception and reality. (1h42m32s)
• The story of Jack and the Beanstalk is about climbing the hierarchy of goods, taking risks, and acquiring something transcendent, which is similar to the idea of the seed being the pattern that ultimately provides food. (1h42m55s)
• The story of Jack and the Beanstalk is also about the idea of substitution of meta-food for food, and higher forms of meta-food, such as riches, the way to make more riches, and the music of the spheres, which symbolizes harmony and patterns. (1h44m21s)
• The human pattern of adaptation involves sharing food, which is a unique and sacrificial behavior that ensures the provision of food in the future. (1h44m46s)
• The conversation will be continued in some form on the Daily Wire side, and viewers are invited to join and find out what the next topic of discussion will be. (1h45m0s)
• The individual came in from Montreal and expressed gratitude to everyone watching and listening for the sacrifice of their time and attention (1h45m33s)