Hugh Jackman and Esther Perel — The Tim Ferriss Show

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• Hugh Jackman and Esther Perel discuss privacy and security in the digital age on the Tim Ferriss Show.
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• Hugh Jackman showcases his fitness by running flat out for half a mile before experiencing hand tremors.

Notes about this supercombo format. (6m2s)

• Tim Ferriss introduces the super combo episodes, a curation of the best episodes from his podcast's 10-year history.
• The episodes aim to feature both well-known and lesser-known guests who have had a transformative impact on Ferriss's life.

Enter Hugh Jackman. (7m5s)

• Hugh Jackman is introduced as an award-winning performer known for roles such as Professor Harold Hill, Jean Valjean, and Wolverine.

What books has Hugh gifted most? (7m38s)

• Hugh Jackman discusses the books he frequently gifts to others:
  • E.B. White's "Here is New York": A collection of essays about New York City written by renowned authors.
  • David Foster Wallace's "This is Water": A short commencement speech that offers profound insights on life.
• Jackman explains that he prefers gifting these books because they are relatively short and easy to read, making them less burdensome for recipients.
• He also recommends Richard Powers' "The Overstory," a Pulitzer Prize-winning novel that explores the relationship between humans and nature through interconnected stories.
  • The book challenges readers' perspectives on nature and encourages them to be more observant of their surroundings.

Hugh's meditation practices. (10m51s)

• Hugh Jackman was introduced to Transcendental Meditation (TM) during drama school.
• TM involves using a mantra to focus the mind and prevent it from being the master.
• Meditation helps Hugh Jackman feel a sense of coming home, experience his true self, and have a finer energy.
• He used to meditate twice a day regularly but now meditates when he feels like it, usually every morning and during work.
• Hugh Jackman believes that emotional energy is the most important energy in the world.
• He practices emotional energy by being present and aware of his emotions, and by not judging them.
• He also practices emotional energy by expressing his emotions in a healthy way, such as through exercise, writing, or talking to a therapist.
• Hugh Jackman believes that emotional energy is the key to a happy and fulfilling life.

Summoning and maintaining the emotional and physical energy necessary for performing. (14m23s)

• Hugh Jackman experiences a profound sense of joy and fulfillment while performing on stage, akin to the religious runner in "Chariots of Fire" who feels God's pleasure when running.
• To maintain his energy and well-being during stage performances, Jackman follows a strict self-care routine that includes:
  • Avoiding alcohol before and limiting it after performances.
  • Waking up refreshed and avoiding the feeling of needing to "catch up" on sleep.
  • Resting and allowing the energy of the performance to settle rather than going out after shows.
  • Limiting coffee intake to prevent dehydration during stage work.
  • Engaging in a religious pre-show routine to quiet his mind, connect with his senses, and remind himself of the privilege and responsibility of performing for each audience.
• Jackman believes that his performances serve a higher purpose beyond the show itself and dedicates them to this purpose.
• To prepare for his performances, Jackman stays quiet during the day and immerses himself in various art forms, such as ballet and classical music, for inspiration.
• Jackman's acting teacher, LY Jones, encouraged him to seek inspiration from unexpected sources like nature walks to fuel his creativity.
• Jackman emphasizes the significance of having sufficient energy and inner resources to give out during performances.

What lessons did Hugh's father teach him about being an example to others? (20m15s)

• Hugh Jackman's parents, though divorced, instilled important values in him: his father emphasized ethics and integrity, while his mother stressed the importance of valuing and appreciating others.
• His father's advice to prioritize education over immediate opportunities led him to choose acting school over a TV show, which ultimately contributed to his success as an actor.
• In a difficult decision, his father advised him to make his own choices, not rely on others, and to commit to the decision he believed was right, even if it was challenging.

The contract Hugh made with himself at the end of drama school. (25m48s)

• Vowed to never wait for the phone to ring and to actively build his brand.
• Started a theater company with a fellow graduate.
• Decided to give acting a 5-year trial period and reevaluate at age 31.
• Cautions against using the word "career" as acting is not a guaranteed right.
• Emphasizes the importance of hard work and treating every job as if it's the last.

Best decisions Hugh made in the first years of being an aspiring/working actor. (29m29s)

• Hugh Jackman's early career decision to accept all roles led to his breakthrough role as Gaston in "Beauty and the Beast."
• Despite his musical success, Jackman faced challenges in Australia, where he was labeled as a singer rather than a serious actor.
• Determined to prove himself as an actor, Jackman left musical theater and focused on acting, leading to a career-changing audition with casting director Trevor Nunn.
• Nunn recognized Jackman's talent and cast him in "Sunset Boulevard" and "Oklahoma" in London, which boosted his confidence and marked a turning point in his career.
• Although initially hesitant, Jackman eventually accepted the role in "The Boy From Oz" on Broadway, solidifying his success as an actor.
• Jackman initially turned down a musical role due to his desire to move away from musicals, but he later regretted his decision and learned to follow his instincts, which has proven beneficial for his career.

How has Hugh learned to trust his intuition? (34m39s)

• Hugh Jackman was raised in a religious household and drew inspiration from religious figures and parables.
• He used to pray to God for clarity on his life's path, fearing being on the wrong path more than failing.
• Jackman believes there's a calling beyond conscious strategizing for happiness and success, something elemental and instinctual.
• He admires people who can tap into this intuition for both big and small decisions.
• Despite this belief, Jackman still struggles with being dominated by his mind and overthinking things.
• Boundaries are essential for healthy relationships, both personally and professionally.
• Boundaries define who we are, what we're comfortable with, and what we're not.
• Without boundaries, we can feel overwhelmed, disrespected, and taken advantage of.
• Boundaries can be physical, emotional, mental, or sexual.
• Setting boundaries is an ongoing process that requires self-awareness and communication.
• It's important to be assertive and respectful when setting boundaries.
• Boundaries can change over time and should be revisited regularly.

The design of the day and the efficacy of manifestation. (37m23s)

• Hugh Jackman designs his day by creating a daily plan in the past tense of what the day had been.
• He scores his day out of 10 to keep himself accountable to what he was trying to manifest or make happen.
• Jackman listens to the messages that come in strange but clear ways, which he believes are signs from the universe.
• He gives an example of receiving a check for the exact amount of tuition he needed to attend acting school after he had ripped up the acceptance letter due to financial constraints.

The most efficient exercises Hugh knows. (39m54s)

• Hugh Jackman recommends the rowing machine as one of the most efficient exercises.
• He also suggests adding in some chest work and push-ups for a complete workout.
• Jackman believes that the rowing machine is often empty at the gym because it is challenging and requires real effort.
• He learned about the effectiveness of the rowing machine from Tim Ferriss' book, "The 4-Hour Body."

The importance of incorporating relaxation into physical activity (the 85% rule). (41m9s)

• Relaxation is crucial in physical activities, leading to better performance.
• The 85% rule suggests that athletes perform faster at 85% capacity due to relaxation, form, and muscle optimization.
• Rowing is an effective way to achieve relaxation and burn fat.
• The 7-minute rowing routine, with a goal of 2,000 meters four times a week, is recommended for quick results.

Enter Esther Perel. (44m33s)

• Esther Perel is a psychotherapist, New York Times best-selling author, and host of the top-rated podcast "Where Should We Begin?"
• She is known for her work on relationships, infidelity, and sexuality.
• Esther Perel is active on Twitter (@estherperel) and Instagram (@estherperelofficial).

Esther's background. (44m57s)

• Esther Perel grew up in Antwerp, Belgium, in the Flemish part of the country.
• She has an older brother who is 12 years her senior.
• Her parents were Polish refugees who came to Belgium after World War II.
• She moved to Jerusalem to study at the Hebrew University and lived there for almost six years.
• She then went to Cambridge, Massachusetts, to complete her Master's Degree and initially planned to stay for one year but ended up staying for two.
• After Cambridge, she moved to New York City, intending to stay for a year to experience the city and never used her return ticket.

Growing up among Holocaust survivors in Antwerp. (46m27s)

• Hugh Jackman grew up in a community of Holocaust survivors in Belgium, where his parents were the sole survivors of their families.
• Jackman's family spoke multiple languages at home, including Yiddish, German, Polish, French, and Flemish.
• Despite the hardships they faced, Jackman's parents embraced life and enjoyed it to the fullest.
• The community valued survival, decency, and street smarts, and had a strong storytelling tradition.

Her parents' survival: chance vs. choice. (54m1s)

• Holocaust survivors attributed their survival to chance, personal choices, and maintaining their humanity by caring for themselves and others.
• Premonitions and dreams helped some survivors avoid danger, while love and connection provided emotional strength and resilience.
• Survivors often felt responsible for staying alive for their families or loved ones.
• The author's community includes two groups: those who "did not die" and those who "came back to life."
• Those who "did not die" live in constant vigilance and guardedness due to survival guilt and a sense of danger, while those who "came back to life" reconnect with life, take risks, and embrace joy, love, and adventure.
• The author's parents, Holocaust survivors, exemplify this life-affirming spirit by planting trees and creating a forest as a defiant act against death and destruction.
• Trust is a key element that enables individuals and communities to come back to life after trauma.

Trust or vulnerability: which comes first? (1h2m43s)

• Trust and vulnerability are not mutually exclusive.
• Some trust theorists believe trust is an active engagement with the unknown.
• Others believe vulnerability allows trust to develop.
• Trust and vulnerability may be dialectical, both are necessary.
• Trusting may release the option to experience vulnerability.
• Vulnerability may build trust.

Impermanence as motivation for living fully. (1h4m40s)

• Hugh Jackman focuses on impermanent things in life.
• Inspired by BJ Miller, a hospice care physician.
• Miller mentioned a bottle of wine as a positive impact.
• Enjoying something impermanent encouraged him.
• Jackman's parents' ability to savor impermanence impacted him.
• He lives voraciously, not because he's insatiable, but because he's aware of the uncertainty of tomorrow.

Esther on being counterphobic. (1h6m40s)

• Esther Perel describes herself as "counterphobic", meaning she acts fearlessly despite being petrified with dread.
• She gives an example of biking in the snow, knowing it's dangerous but doing it anyway.
• She constantly feels like something bad will happen but still pushes the edge.
• She wishes she didn't have this constant fear but acknowledges it helps her tolerate uncertainty and the current political climate.
• She believes it's a result of her past but doesn't consider it a good way to live.
• Esther Perel went to the United States at 18 and hitchhiked across the country for seven weeks in 1976.
• She had a formative experience seeing America without judgment and meeting various people who picked her up.
• She considers it one of the most formative experiences of her life and wishes her children could have a similar experience.
• After that, she went to Jerusalem.

Studying in Jerusalem. (1h9m51s)

• Esther Perel chose to study in Jerusalem because she found the Belgian education system outdated and restrictive.
• She was passionate about theater, but her mother encouraged her to pursue a university education for structure.
• The Hebrew University in Jerusalem offered a great academic reputation and an exciting city to explore.
• Perel credits her decision to study in Jerusalem as an adventurous and enriching experience.
• Esther Perel emphasizes the significant impact of mentorship throughout her life.
• She is preparing to honor her 95-year-old mentor from America at a psychotherapy conference in Washington.
• Perel acknowledges that she sought out mentors and teachers who could guide and support her personal and professional growth.
• Her brother played a crucial role in recommending books and shaping her intellectual development.
• Perel highlights the transformative experience of studying with Salvador Minuchin, a renowned family therapist.
• She describes knocking on Minuchin's door in New York and being granted the opportunity to observe and learn from him for 10 weeks.

Seeking and approaching mentors. (1h14m18s)

• Tim Ferriss suggests being persistent and showing genuine interest and motivation when approaching mentors, even if it means starting as an unpaid consultant.
• He emphasizes the importance of being respectful and understanding that mentors are busy, but also being persistent and showing that you truly value their time and knowledge.
• Ferriss highlights the importance of having a "kpaa" (creative, imaginative, healthy curiosity) when seeking out mentors.
• When requesting help, it's important to strike a balance between expressing gratitude and acknowledging the recipient's time constraints.
• Demonstrating a genuine interest in the recipient's work or expertise, rather than simply projecting one's own desires, can increase the chances of a positive response.

Eroticism as an antidote to death. (1h22m55s)

• Eroticism is sexuality transformed by human imagination.
• It gives meaning and context to sexuality, turning it into a place of connection, vibrancy, aliveness, and life force.
• Eroticism has a transcending quality and is often discussed in spiritual and religious terms.
• Modernity has narrowed the meaning of eroticism to something blatantly sexual rather than life force.
• People seek to reconnect with the erotic life force when they feel a loss of desire and energy in their sex lives.
• Eroticism is not just about arousal or having more sex, but about reconnecting with vitality, vibrancy, mystery, and imaginative play.
• Curiosity is an essential ingredient of the erotic.
• Eroticism can transcend the act of sex and make people feel utterly alive, even in old age.

Options for couples with sexual listlessness. (1h26m20s)

• Esther Perel explores the complexities of desire and monogamy in long-term relationships, challenging the traditional view that sexual problems always stem from relationship issues.
• Perel argues that desire and love are not directly correlated and that monogamy can be defined beyond sexual exclusivity, historically imposed on women as an economic arrangement.
• She emphasizes that monogamy is a choice, and individuals must manage their desires within their chosen boundaries.
• Modern love involves discussions about dealing with loss of desire, the significance of sex in relationships, and the boundaries of sexual relationships outside primary partnerships.

Too much honesty in relationships? American vs. European views. (1h33m20s)

• In San Francisco, there is a growing trend of people trying non-monogamous relationships, such as monogamish or polyamorous relationships.
• Radical honesty can lead to conflicts in relationships because it does not consider the consequences of sharing the truth on the other person.
• Different cultures have different definitions of honesty, and in some cultures, it is more important to consider the impact of the truth on the other person rather than laying everything out.
• Keeping things to oneself can be important in relationships, and intimacy is not about sharing everything.
• Privacy is at risk in many sectors of society, and people respond with either extreme sharing or complete secrecy.
• Oversharing can be problematic when it is mistaken for honesty.

Complete sharing vs. caring in relationships. (1h39m23s)

• Sharing does not always equal caring for the other person or fostering intimacy.
• Holding back, making space for the other person, and dealing with one's own feelings are important.
• The idea that because one loves someone, they should be able to tell them everything is not a given.
• Telling everything is not a right, but an invitation.
• People do not have a right to enter another person's mind; they are invited in.
• For further reading on this topic, the article "I Think You're Fat" by AJ Jacobs is recommended.

Guiding patients through infidelity disclosure. (1h40m32s)

• Before advising someone on whether to disclose an affair, it's crucial to understand the meaning and motives behind the transgression, as well as the emotions involved, such as guilt or a lack of desire for their partner.
• It's essential to consider what the partner would want to know and whether the disclosure is motivated by genuine concern for the other person or by personal feelings.
• Disclosing an affair can lead to further questions about the details, which may or may not be something the partner wants to know.
• It's crucial to slow down, ponder the situation, and understand the psychological significance of the affair, even if it was meant to be meaningless.
• To effectively communicate in a relationship, it's important to first reflect on your own thoughts and feelings, and then consider your partner's perspective and the overall relationship.
• Writing a letter to your partner can be a helpful way to process your thoughts and emotions, and to communicate your feelings in a structured and thoughtful manner.

Overcoming fear of abandonment in non-exclusive relationships. (1h45m45s)

• Fear of abandonment and fear of suffocation are common in relationships, with one partner typically more affected by each fear.
• Childhood experiences and insecurities can significantly influence a person's response to non-monogamy.
• Non-monogamy can be positive when both partners share the same curiosity and fluidity, but it can be challenging when one partner strongly desires it and the other finds it difficult to accept.
• In heterosexual relationships, women may be open to their male partners having more sexual variety but may not have the same sexual drive themselves, leading to insecurity and fear of abandonment.

Quarterly relationship report cards. (1h52m39s)

• An older gentleman in an open relationship receives a quarterly report card from his wife.
• The report card assesses his performance in four categories: lover, husband, provider, and father.
• He is allowed to have a low score in one category as long as his average score is high enough.
• This arrangement seems to work well for the couple and provides a way to measure and correct their relationship.

"Don't ask, don't tell" in polyamorous relationships. (1h54m10s)

• Some polyamorous couples have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy regarding their outside relationships.
• This means that they do not share details of their outside relationships with each other.
• This policy seems to work well for some couples, as it allows them to maintain their privacy and avoid potential conflicts.
• Esther Perel suggests that this arrangement can be creative, thoughtful, and imaginative, and that it can foster trust, loyalty, and attachment.

Innovation and flexibility over rigid ideology in relationships. (1h56m2s)

• Flexibility and innovation are important in relationships, just like in other areas of life.
• There is no one-size-fits-all model for relationships, and couples may need to change their arrangements over time due to various factors such as age, illness, success, children leaving, personal awakenings, or weight loss.
• Couples who want to stay together long-term need to be able to review and negotiate their relational arrangements, and to try new things to see what works for them.
• Flexibility allows couples to avoid getting stuck in a rut and to keep their relationship enriching.
• Some people find that the "don't ask, don't tell" approach works well for them, as it provides privacy while maintaining a sense of primary loyalty and commitment.
• Continuous investment, reassurance, and building into the relationship are important for maintaining a healthy relationship.
• Transparency and radical honesty have become ideologies, which can be rigid and not adaptable to the specific needs of a relationship.
• It is more important to consider what works, is decent, caring, warm, and fits both partners, rather than whether something is true or right.

Relationships as power dynamics. (1h58m59s)

• Radical honesty, transparency, truth-telling, and authenticity are valued in modern society and relationships.
• People seek transformative experiences at home and work.
• Different relationships serve different purposes and have varying levels of intimacy.
• Power dynamics are present in all negotiations and relationships.
• Equity in decision-making is crucial, ensuring both partners feel they have equal say in what works for them.
• Power can be used to evaluate and calibrate actions within a relationship.
• Power dynamics extend beyond sexual relationships and are present in all types of relationships.
• There is a growing acceptance and exploration of non-monogamous relationships, including polyamory.
• Non-monogamy today differs from the free love movement of the 60s and 70s.
• Many people who engage in non-monogamy are children of divorced or disillusioned parents and seek more realistic ways to make their commitments last.
• Non-monogamous relationships can take various forms, such as occasional hall passes, swinging, established threesomes, and complex polyamorous networks.
• The purpose of these relationship structures is to reconfigure love and family life.
• Power dynamics play a significant role in non-monogamous relationships, as Oscar Wilde famously said, "Everything in the world is about sex except sex, sex is about power."

The research process for Esther's book on adultery. (2h2m36s)

• Esther Perel's book, "State of Affairs," explores infidelity, transgression, and extramarital affairs.
• Perel's research includes traveling the globe, interviewing affected couples, and analyzing therapy sessions and letters.
• She aims to change the cultural conversation around infidelity and its impact on individuals and their loved ones.
• The definition of cheating has expanded to include sexting, texting, dating apps, and watching porn.
• Infidelity involves a range of emotions, including jealousy, hurt, betrayal, pain, lust, love, and passion.
• Perel suggests infidelity is a complex human experience that requires careful examination and understanding.
• She raises questions about ownership in relationships and the idea of partners being "on loan" with an option for renewal.

Arguments for marriage today. (2h8m52s)

• The legal construct of marriage has consequences, such as financial implications and difficulty in ending the relationship.
• The only argument for marriage seems to be loss aversion, where the fear of losing something motivates people to maintain a relationship.
• Americans have a high divorce rate but are still enthusiastic about getting married multiple times.
• The reasons for this are not fully understood, but it may be related to the lack of other meaningful rituals and structures in modern society.
• Marriage provides a cultural meaning and a code of conduct, which can be important in a time when many norms are being reevaluated.
• Gay marriage played a role in understanding the significance of legalizing and giving rights to queer families.
• Marriage is seen as a solid construct, even though it often fails, and some people feel that commitment without the structure of marriage is not as strong.
• It is unclear whether relationships that are not held together by marriage dissolve more frequently in Europe compared to the United States.

Divorce rates in second marriages. (2h14m3s)

• The divorce rate for second marriages is 65%, which is significantly higher than the divorce rate for first marriages.
• This suggests that the structure of marriage itself may be a contributing factor to divorce, rather than just the individuals involved.

Marriage's effect on relationship behavior. (2h15m29s)

• People tend to put more effort and creativity into their affairs than they do into their marriages or relationships.
• This leads to a lack of investment in the relationship and a decline in the quality of the relationship.
• People often treat their partners poorly in ways that they would not treat their friends or colleagues.
• This is because they believe that their partner will always be there and take it, regardless of how they behave.

Human questions explored through infidelity in Esther's book. (2h18m10s)

• Esther Perel's new book, "The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity," explores various questions related to infidelity and human relationships.
• Topics covered in the book include:
  • Why do people cheat, even when they are happy?
  • Is infidelity always a deal-breaker?
  • Why do we have different ideas about why men and women cheat?
  • How do we deal with jealousy?
  • Can love ever be plural?
  • Is possessiveness a natural part of love or a product of patriarchy?

Books Esther frequently gifts and rereads. (2h22m4s)

• Esther Perel frequently gifts the book "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl to others.
• Books that Esther Perel has reread multiple times include:
  • "The Art of Loving" by Erich Fromm
  • "The Erotic Mind" by Jack Morin
  • "Madame Bovary" by Gustave Flaubert
  • "Crime and Punishment" by Fyodor Dostoevsky

Esther's billboard. (2h22m58s)

• Esther Perel's metaphorical billboard would display a message encouraging people to do more for others, especially those outside their immediate circle.
• The message would be a reminder that there's always more that can be done to help others.
• Hugh Jackman and Esther Perel discuss various topics on the Tim Ferriss Show podcast.
• Topics include relationships, communication, and personal growth.

Parting thoughts. (2h23m31s)

• Esther Perel emphasizes the importance of taking responsibility for actions and relationships to combat isolation and depression. She invites individuals to join her on social media platforms to engage in discussions about relationships and love.
• Tim Ferriss promotes his weekly "Five Bullet Friday" newsletter, sharing interesting articles, books, and discoveries.
• Hugh Jackman discusses various topics on the Tim Ferriss Show podcast, including his experience using Momentus sleep supplements and creatine for improved sleep and cognitive performance.
• Momentus products are trusted by athletes, military personnel, and sports teams. They collaborate with experts to develop high-quality, third-party tested supplements and ship internationally.
• ExpressVPN is recommended for online privacy and security, encrypting internet traffic, protecting user data, and allowing access to geo-restricted content. It is fast, user-friendly, and compatible with various devices.