Dawkins vs Peterson: Memes & Archetypes | Alex O’Connor Moderates | EP 491

Coming up (0s)

• A discussion between Dr. Richard Dawkins and Jordan Peterson, moderated by Alex O'Connor, explores their agreements and disagreements in a productive manner (17s).
• Dr. Peterson is asked about his claim of being a "cultural Christian," and he responds that he prioritizes the symbolic and metaphorical value of Christianity, rather than its literal truth claims (22s).
• Dr. Peterson believes that any culture that does not hold the image of the woman and infant sacred will die, and he thinks that the biblical stories reflect a fundamental order or logos (39s).
• Dr. Dawkins and Dr. Peterson have differing views on the importance of myth and fact, with Dr. Dawkins prioritizing fact and Dr. Peterson prioritizing myth (1m0s).
• Dr. Peterson suggests that the pathways of myth and fact need to be unified, but he is unsure how to achieve this, and he thinks it is worth exploring further (1m12s).
• The discussion touches on the idea that the biblical stories may have evolved to reflect a deeper truth or order, rather than being divinely inspired (50s).

Memes vs. archetypes: what creates depth and fundamentality (1m21s)

• A meme is described as a "virus of the mind" that spreads through imitation, whereas an archetype is an inherent part of human psychology that is present in all humans by virtue of being human (1m21s).
• Archetypes are not something that spreads as an epidemic, but rather they are built-in, fundamental aspects of human psychology, whereas memes are things that become fashionable and spread as an epidemic around the population (1m31s).
• Memes are not embedded into the psychology of people, but rather they arise and are things like the backwards baseball hat, which is not an archetype but something that becomes fashionable and spreads (1m35s).
• The idea that a meme is very similar to an archetype is proposed, suggesting that if the idea of what a meme is is pushed further, it might end up with an archetype (2m31s).
• The concept of memes and archetypes can be tied together by noticing that something spreads because it catches people's interest, often due to emotional resonance, which can be either positive or negative (2m48s).
• As an idea or meme becomes more related to underlying biological motivational structures, it becomes more of an expression of something that's instinctual and archetypal (3m21s).
• Archetypes can be seen as the manifestation of an instinct in image and behavior, with the deepest level being something like instinct or motivational/emotional drive (3m31s).
• The idea that archetypes could be a reason why some memes spread is considered plausible, suggesting that memes can play upon more fundamental psychological concepts like archetypes (4m19s).
• Archetypes are seen as more foundational and deep than memes, and they don't spread through cultures or grow and die in individual generations (4m56s).
• The relationship between archetypal ideas and memes is complex, with archetypal ideas having the capacity to spread virally and rise and fall, as seen in the history of religious ideas (6m6s).

“The battle between the gods” is portrayed across cultures (6m34s)

• The concept of "the battle between the gods" is a widespread religious motif that appears in many cultures, where each god represents a motive, perception, or being, and as cultures interact, their gods compete in the imagination, leading to the emergence of a hierarchy and eventually monotheism (6m55s).
• This idea is analyzed in Mircea Eliade's book series "A History of Religious Ideas", which explores the various ways of seeing the world and acting in it that are transformed into something divine (6m49s).
• The concept of memes is considered to be a real and existing idea that transmits cultural information, but the concept of archetypes is more debatable, with some questioning whether archetypes are built-in genetically or a product of human culture (7m37s).
• The idea of the gods competing with each other is considered a proper archetype because it appears in all cultures, suggesting that there may be something about human brains that leads different cultures to invent similar religious symbols and themes (7m55s).
• However, Richard Dawkins is not convinced that this is a penetrating observation, as the idea of battles between gods is not implausible given the existence of human battles, and it may not be a unique or insightful concept (8m28s).
• The exploration of universal themes, such as the battle between the gods, can help to understand the nature of these themes and their significance across cultures (8m36s).

The world of facts is seen through a story (8m41s)

• The concept of how facts are expressed in stories is a central idea in the cultural conflict, and it is believed that postmodernists have stumbled upon something true, which is also being realized in disciplines like neuroscience, AI, and robotics (8m41s).
• The world of facts is seen through a story because humans have to prioritize their perceptions and facts, and a story is a verbal account of how these perceptions and facts are prioritized (9m6s).
• This idea is illustrated through the example of a movie, where the writers show how the hero prioritizes his perceptions, and the audience derives the story of his life and ethic from that (9m24s).
• The idea that humans have a story to organize their perceptions in priority, and that the description of this organization is a story, is considered revolutionary (9m47s).
• The postmodernists are believed to have gotten this idea right, which is why there is a culture war going on, at least in part, because of the idea that the world is seen through a story (9m52s).
• The prioritization of perceptions is a tricky problem, but one possible approach is to prioritize facts that are true and have evidence going for them, and to be less interested in symbols (10m11s).

“Drunk on symbols,” the spirit of Cain (10m24s)

• The discussion revolves around the concept of symbols and archetypes, with a focus on the biblical figure of Cain, who is mentioned 356 times in Jordan Peterson's book "Who Are We to Wrestle with God." Peterson is accused of being obsessed with Cain, who symbolizes evil, and is questioned about whether he believes Cain actually existed (10m24s).
• Peterson views Cain as an eternal pattern, representing a higher level of existence, rather than a historical figure, and believes that the pattern of conflict between brothers, as represented by Cain and Abel, is a fundamental and universal theme (12m10s).
• The conversation touches on the idea that biblical accounts can be interpreted in different ways, including literally, poetically, metaphorically, and allegorically, and that a sophisticated understanding of biblical analysis recognizes these different modes of interpretation (13m57s).
• Peterson suggests that the story of Cain and Abel may have originated from actual events, but as it was passed down through time, it evolved and became emblematic of a broader pattern of conflict, rather than a historical fact (13m22s).
• Richard Dawkins identifies as a literalist, implying that he interprets texts in a more straightforward and factual manner, and questions Peterson's approach to biblical interpretation (14m21s).
• The story of Cain and Abel is seen allegorically, with the two brothers representing the first genuine humans, not created by God, and embodying the patterns of conflict that exist in the world of history, within the confines of the biblical text (14m27s).
• The statement that Cain and Abel were the first normally born human beings is understood to be true within the context of the story, but not necessarily historically accurate (15m7s).
• The concept of truth in the story is compared to the example of Sherlock Holmes living at 221B Baker Street, which is true within the context of the story, but not in reality (15m19s).
• Cain and Abel are seen as emblematic of the patterns of perception and action that characterize human existence in the Fallen World, outside of the pre-existent paradise (15m39s).
• The question of whether Cain and Abel really existed is considered to be a silly question, as the story is more about the universal human patterns they represent, rather than historical facts (15m53s).
• The idea of Cain and Abel being "hyperreal" is introduced, meaning that they represent universal human patterns and archetypes, rather than specific historical individuals (16m32s).
• The existence or non-existence of Cain and Abel as historical individuals is considered to be irrelevant, as the story has been compressed and modified over time, and has taken on meanings that were not part of the original story (16m50s).

Were the biblical texts divinely inspired or did they evolve? (17m23s)

• The writers of Genesis are considered great writers due to the patterning of the stories and the ideas they convey, such as the story of Cain and Abel, which is emblematic of two opposed patterns of adaptation to the world (17m34s).
• The story of Cain and Abel is seen as brilliant and has an infinite depth, with the patterns portrayed in the story playing out in the real world continually (17m50s).
• The author of the story in Genesis is not known, but it is believed that there is a spirit of literary genius at work across millennia, crafting the story to have an infinite depth (18m18s).
• The story of Genesis is thought to have evolved over time, like a meme, to match the contours of human memory, making it maximally memorable for a biological reason (18m41s).
• The evolution of the story can be seen in the compilation of the biblical texts, where the concept of sacrifice evolves across the texts as they are sequenced chronologically (19m19s).
• The concept of sacrifice becomes more sophisticated, elaborated, and specified throughout the biblical text, with a clear progression of ideas (20m11s).
• The idea of sacrifice is a recurring motif throughout the biblical text, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, and is elaborated constantly (20m43s).
• A criticism of the Bible is that it does not provide any indication of divine origin, with no original discoveries or ideas that could not have evolved through human thought (20m52s).
• The concept of a unified truth is discussed, where the world of value and the world of fact coincide in some manner that is not yet fully understood, and this union is equivalent to what has been described as divine order across millennia (21m36s).
• The idea is presented that whether a text is divinely inspired or evolved through human progression does not make a fundamental difference, as long as it is reflective of the implicit logos or order (22m27s).
• The concept of sacrifice in the biblical text is explored, and it is suggested that perception itself is sacrificial in nature, and that there is no difference between work and sacrifice (23m22s).
• The emphasis on sacrifice in the text is seen as remarkable, especially since it is implicit and not necessarily understood by the authors and editors of the text (23m41s).
• The community is predicated on sacrifice because every step towards the communitarian means giving something up that is local to what one wants in the present moment (23m54s).
• The notion of sacrifice is seen as a recurring theme throughout the Old and New Testaments, including the sacrifice of Isaac/Ishmael by Abraham and the sacrifice of Jesus (24m17s).
• The idea of sacrifice is acknowledged as an unpleasant concept, but its significance and implications are explored in the context of community and the human experience (24m30s).

What escapes our grip: the biblical text and quantum physics (24m36s)

• The discussion touches on the topics of biblical texts and quantum physics, with the idea that both are mysterious and difficult to fully understand, but differ in their ability to make predictions that can be verified (26m7s).
• The biblical texts are considered mysterious, but their meaning and interpretations are not as clear-cut or verifiable as the predictions made by quantum physics (27m30s).
• Quantum physics is able to make predictions that are fulfilled to a high degree of accuracy, with examples given of predicting the width of North America to the nearest hair's breadth (27m46s).
• The credentials of quantum physics come from its ability to make accurate predictions, whereas the biblical texts do not have the same level of verifiable credentials (27m55s).
• The idea is also mentioned that, despite the difficulties in understanding quantum phenomena, there is ample evidence that it works, and its strange properties, such as wave-particle duality, are well-documented (27m4s).
• The conversation also references an interview with Pierce Morgan, where the complexities of understanding quantum phenomena were discussed (26m32s).
• The concept of wave-particle duality in quantum physics is mentioned as an example of a phenomenon that is difficult to intuitively understand, but is supported by evidence (26m58s).
• The discussion also touches on the idea that, despite the difficulties in understanding biblical texts, the more one learns about them, the more they realize how little they know, and that it is not possible to claim full knowledge of what the texts proclaim (26m19s).

Dawkins clarifies his claim on being a cultural Christian (28m4s)

• A discussion about being a "cultural Christian" was raised, with the question of what this term means and what aspects of Christianity are being referred to (28m8s).
• The term "cultural Christian" was clarified to mean being brought up in a Christian culture, attending Christian schools, and being familiar with the Bible and Christian traditions, but not valuing Christianity as a truth system (29m29s).
• The question of whether there are marked differences between cultural traditions that would enable them to be ranked in terms of their ethical validity was raised, with the example of contrasting mainstream UK Christianity with Islamic fundamentalism (29m56s).
• It was suggested that Islam could be considered to be on a lower level than Christianity due to its practices such as punishing apostasy with death, throwing gay people off high buildings, and practicing clitoridectomy (30m14s).
• However, it was also noted that being better than a religion that throws gay people off high buildings is not a very virtuous achievement, and that any progression towards mercy and tolerance is a significant achievement (31m3s).
• The discussion also touched on the idea that people are inherently ruthless, and that any movement towards tolerance and mercy is a difficult and significant achievement (31m28s).
• The importance of distinguishing between the truth value of a claim and its cultural or historical significance was emphasized, with the example of the Virgin birth and the Resurrection in Christianity (31m51s).
• The idea that certain elements of a story, such as the Virgin birth, can have metaphorical or mythic significance, but not necessarily be taken as historical fact, was also discussed (32m10s).
• The importance of holding the image of the woman and infant sacred was noted, but it was unclear how this needs to be expressed in a particular form (32m24s).

Truth claims in fiction, both sexes carry the image of God (32m41s)

• The concept of truth is complex, and it's challenging to determine differences in truth claims between various writers of fiction, as fiction itself doesn't make truth claims (32m41s).
• Fiction can be ranked in terms of quality, with some writers, like Dostoevsky, being profound and deep on the philosophical front, offering insights into human nature that are true in a non-scientific sense (33m0s).
• The truth in fiction is distinct from the truth in science, which is concerned with objective facts that can be proven, such as the truth that allows us to reach the Moon (33m15s).
• When dealing with factual issues, such as the oppression of women, a scientific case can be made against practices like clitoridectomy, but this case is also influenced by moral and philosophical grounds (33m39s).
• The Judeo-Christian tradition makes a significant proclamation that both men and women carry the image of God, setting a tone for their intrinsic value and worth outside of power and politics (33m47s).
• This proclamation is remarkable given its age and has implications for how we treat others, but it's not clear how to deal with this idea in the realm of pure fact, as it's not immediately obvious why one person shouldn't oppress another if they can (34m12s).

The virgin birth and the absolute need for a value hierarchy (34m24s)

• A question was raised about the Virgin birth, and it was suggested that the predictive power of a society not believing in the Virgin birth might be relevant, but the question of whether Jesus was born of a virgin as a biological fact was not directly answered (34m25s).
• The response to the question was that there are elements of the text that cannot be fully accounted for, and the knowledge of the fundamental reality and significance of the notion of the Resurrection is limited (35m6s).
• The power of the Christian story was acknowledged, as it was powerful enough to bring Rome to its knees and demolish the Pagan Enterprise (35m30s).
• The Virgin birth was attributed to a mistranslation of Isaiah, and it was suggested that this question does not get to the point and is beside the issue (35m40s).
• The conversation started with the idea that a description of the structure through which we see the world is a story, and we prioritize our facts according to a particular pattern (36m15s).
• The importance of patterns that seem to work and propagate themselves properly, and orient cultures towards life abundant, was emphasized, and the example of the pattern of Cain leading to devastation was given (36m37s).
• The question of how to make a case on purely factual grounds that women should be treated as equals was raised, and it was suggested that this is a moral question (36m56s).
• The factual question of whether Jesus had a father was raised, and it was suggested that Jesus was not born of a virgin, as he had a Heavenly Father like many mythological heroes (37m9s).
• The response to the question was that the fact-value dichotomy in this case is difficult to mediate, and the same was said about the Resurrection (37m26s).
• The question of whether a man had intercourse with Mary and produced Jesus was raised as a factual question, and it was emphasized that this is not a value question (37m35s).
• The importance of understanding the distinction between scientific truth and the intended significance of the biblical texts was emphasized (37m58s).
• The discussion revolves around the kind of truth that Richard Dawkins is interested in, which may be irrelevant to the point of the gospel authors, and needs to be clarified before uncovering the stories' meaning (38m2s).
• Dawkins is asking from a scientific perspective, which may be considered wrong, but taking this approach can help determine its validity (38m12s).
• The question of whether a biblical event occurred is not inappropriate to ask, even from a point of interest, and the answer should be "I don't know" if it cannot be scientifically proven (38m45s).
• The context of the conversation is about metaphor and myths, but the question of whether an event really happened is still relevant (39m4s).
• Jordan Peterson and Dawkins have different perspectives on the situation, and Peterson thinks Dawkins' approach is wrong due to his lack of knowledge on the history of religious ideas (39m21s).
• Peterson believes that the history of religious ideas has battled across millennia, similar to Dawkins' concept of memes, but Dawkins is not familiar with this literature (39m30s).
• There is a problem in understanding the relationship between metaphoric truth, value-predicated truth, and factual truth, and science cannot provide a complete understanding of the world (39m57s).
• Prioritizing facts is a value hierarchy, and there may be true and false ways of prioritizing facts, but this cannot be determined by referencing the facts themselves (40m25s).
• The scientific enterprise is based on a fundamentally unscientific assumption, as it requires choosing what to prioritize and investigate, and valuing the truth, which cannot be scientifically justified (40m52s).
• Dawkins acknowledges that the scientific enterprise may have an unscientific assumption at its base (41m17s).
• Jordan and Richard have different priorities, with Jordan prioritizing myth and Richard prioritizing fact, considering myth as secondary to scientific fact (41m23s).
• Richard values scientific facts that provide information on the age of the universe, the world, the history of life, and engineering achievements such as landing a spacecraft on a comet (41m44s).
• He emphasizes the importance of the predictions of quantum theory, which have been verified to a high degree of accuracy, and considers these achievements to be more significant than the mysteries of the Bible (42m5s).
• A commercial for Jeremy's Razer Precision 5 razor is presented, highlighting its engineering and the idea that merit still matters, while also criticizing "woke corporations" (42m36s).

The preconditions for the scientific enterprise (43m6s)

• The scientific enterprise is motivated by the presumption that truth tends towards a unity, and it is predicated on the notion that there is a logical order intrinsic to the cosmos that is good, intelligible to human beings, and that discovering and aligning with it makes for a more abundant life (43m43s).
• The scientific enterprise is also predicated on the idea that the truth will set you free, and these axioms are considered religious and derived from the Judeo-Christian tradition (44m10s).
• The emergence of science in Europe and nowhere else in human history can be attributed to the Judeo-Christian tradition, and its decline is linked to the disappearance of the underlying metaphysic (44m18s).
• The universities' ability to flourish and the freedom to pursue scientific endeavors are threatened as the metaphysical assumptions become questionable (44m53s).
• The accuracy of quantum prediction and technological advancements are acknowledged and admired, but the state of universities is considered a non-scientific problem (45m5s).
• The possibility that Christianity facilitated the emergence of science in Europe is acknowledged, but it does not increase trust in the validity of Christian propositions such as the Resurrection, the Virgin birth, and miracles (45m31s).
• The historical analysis of Christianity's potential role in the Scientific Revolution is considered interesting, but it does not bear upon the truth of Christian propositions (46m5s).

The Resurrection and the bronze serpent (46m19s)

• The discussion revolves around the concept of the resurrection, and the mode of approach taken by mythological perspectives, which often involves encoding messages in images or drama, making it more difficult to make propositional and logical arguments (46m20s).
• A story from the gospels is shared, where Christ tells his followers that unless he's lifted up like the bronze serpent, there can be no hope for the redemption of mankind (47m2s).
• The story of the bronze serpent in the desert is referenced, where the Israelites are punished with poisonous snakes for their disobedience, and Moses is instructed by God to create a bronze serpent and put it up for the Israelites to see, which will cure them of the snake's poison (47m44s).
• The bronze serpent is a symbol of healing, used by the Greeks and still used by physicians today, and its significance is understood psychologically (49m8s).
• The concept of exposure therapy is mentioned, where a small amount of the poison that hurts can cure, similar to the principle used in vaccines, and this is seen as a parallel to the story of the bronze serpent (49m32s).
• The story of the bronze serpent is seen as a precursor to the concept of exposure therapy, and its concordance with Christ's utterance is considered remarkable, especially given the lack of explicit understanding about the relationship between the two stories (47m34s).
• The idea is presented that people should confront the things that poison or hurt them, allowing them to become braver and more well-adapted, as they learn to expose themselves to things they once feared, discovering there's more to them than they thought, and this generalizes across situations (49m51s).
• This mechanism is compared to how children learn by putting themselves on the edge of disaster, advancing and growing from the experience (50m21s).
• The story of God telling the Israelites to face their terrors rather than hiding from them is mentioned, suggesting that facing what's poisonous can make people better (50m27s).
• The symbol of the bronze serpent is used by the Greeks to symbolize medicine, and Christ identifies with this symbol, which is seen as a peculiar and interesting connection (50m50s).
• The idea is proposed that the most poisonous thing to face would be the most unjust, painful death, and the ultimate confrontation with malevolence, which is dramatized in the passion story (51m23s).
• The concept of redemption through facing death and evil is discussed, with the idea that if people were courageous enough to confront these things, it could revitalize them to an unimaginable degree (51m32s).
• The biologist's perspective is mentioned, noting that humans have evolved to undergo the "deaths" of their own ideas, allowing for rejuvenation and evolution towards a process of sacrificial logos (52m3s).
• The story of the Old Testament bronze serpent is compared to the New Testament depiction of Christ as the bronze serpent, with some seeing this harmony as profound and impressive, suggesting more than just naive human authorship (52m42s).
• However, not everyone is impressed by this connection, with some seeing it as a brilliant literary move rather than evidence of divine inspiration (53m15s).
• The idea is proposed that if the Bible is not a scientific text, it might contain some other form of brilliance or intensity that could indicate its significance, such as a genius moral or literary move (54m2s).
• A suggestion is made that a prophet stating a scientifically accurate fact, such as the Earth rotating around the Sun, would be impressive, but this is not found in the Bible (54m26s).
• The concept of sacrifice being the basis of a community is discussed as a remarkable and scientifically valid hypothesis, comparable to the process of cortical maturation (55m0s).
• Cortical maturation is described as the process of moving away from immediate self-centered needs to a wider ethos of care, bringing the future self and others into consideration (55m13s).
• The purpose of the cortex is proposed to be bringing harmony to the underlying motivational and emotional systems, allowing for communal existence and protection of the future (55m39s).
• The idea is presented that there is a limited universe of possibilities for a society to organize itself in a way that allows individuals to harmonize their own future with the present, simultaneously with many other people (56m15s).
• The concept of a pattern or harmony in human organization is discussed, suggesting that it is not arbitrary and can be understood biologically (56m7s).

The divine and the mundane, the biological reality of dragons (56m32s)

• A discussion is taking place about the difference between a story or idea naturally evolving over time and the concept of divine inspiration, with the idea that these two concepts may be interchangeable (56m33s).
• The conversation touches on the idea that if the divine spirit behind the Bible is seen as the way it has evolved throughout human history and different manuscripts, then that could be seen as dragging the divine down to the realm of the mundane (56m53s).
• However, an alternative perspective is presented, suggesting that this evolution could be seen as the material reaching upward or the divine descending downward, with no difference between the two (58m47s).
• The conversation is compared to a path of harmony between multiple modes of being, with the goal of following the thread of exploratory truth (58m34s).
• The idea of evolving manuscripts is presented as a possibility for how truths emerge, which is distinct from divine inspiration (59m44s).
• The conversation is moderated, and the moderator is helping to facilitate a dialogue that allows for the exploration of ideas and the pursuit of truth (59m20s).
• The discussion mentions the work of Merer Alata, a historian of religious ideas, and the possibility of studying the history of religious ideas to gain a deeper understanding of the topic (1h0m5s).
• Shopify is mentioned as a commerce solution that can help businesses sell and grow, with a special offer for listeners (57m31s).
• The conversation involves Richard Dawkins and Jordan Peterson, with Alex O'Connor moderating the discussion [no timestamp provided, but implied throughout the text].
• The concept of the meme, as developed by Richard Dawkins, is compared to the idea of archetypes in the work of Eric Neumann, a student of Carl Jung, with the suggestion that both concepts describe the same fundamental human experience (1h0m18s).
• Eric Neumann's work, including his books "The Origins and History of Consciousness" and "The Great Mother", is discussed as a potential bridge between the biological and psychological aspects of human nature (1h0m56s).
• The psychophysiology of the hypothalamus is described, with its two halves dealing with fundamental motivated states and exploratory behavior, and how this relates to the concept of hero mythology (1h1m36s).
• The idea that the default structure of the mammalian nervous system is to explore and gather new information when biologically motivated states are satiated is compared to the concept of hero mythology, with the suggestion that they are the same thing (1h2m19s).
• The story of the dragon fight, a common mythological theme, is seen as a representation of the human desire to explore the unknown and overcome challenges, and is compared to the scientific method (1h2m34s).
• The concept of the dragon is discussed as a symbolic representation of the predator, with the suggestion that it is a real concept in the sense that it represents a fundamental human fear and challenge (1h3m21s).
• The idea that the fundamental task of humans is to overcome the challenges represented by the dragon, whether literal or symbolic, is discussed as a central theme in human mythology and psychology (1h4m3s).
• The concept of a dragon can be seen as an abstract representation of a predator, with the term "predator" being more general and applicable to various creatures, including lions and dragons (1h4m16s).
• The idea of a dragon is not just a biological concept, but also a narrative and artistic representation used to convey moral messages and teach children about courage and confronting predators (1h5m24s).
• The category of dragon is considered valid, similar to the category of lion, as both are used to represent different aspects of the natural world and human experiences (1h6m10s).
• The term "predator" implies that all predators have something in common, and it depends on the level of analysis and purpose of the conceptualization to determine which term should be used (1h6m19s).
• A lion can be seen as an instantiation of the term "predator," and similarly, a lion can also be considered an instantiation of the term "dragon" in a more abstract and narrative sense (1h6m52s).
• The concept of a dragon is used to teach children not only to identify predators but also to take a courageous attitude towards them, and to assume that confronting predators can lead to eternal treasure (1h7m20s).
• The process of learning and growth involves making sacrifices to get rid of what's old and stupid, as seen in the story of Abraham, who leaves his comfort zone and undergoes a series of transformations, ultimately changing his name to signify his dramatic change (1h8m30s).
• The story of Abraham is an example of the mechanism of learning in human beings, where one must be willing to kill their own stupidity to move forward and progress (1h8m27s).
• The relationship between predators and prey is an evolutionary arms race, where adaptations by one side lead to counter-adaptations by the other, resulting in a gradual escalation of traits and behaviors (1h10m10s).
• This arms race is what drives the development of complex biological traits, such as sharp teeth and keen senses, and is a more interesting explanation for adaptations than simply responding to climate change (1h10m20s).
• The concept of an arms race can be applied to the abstract realm of ideas, where the battle with a predator is transformed into a meme battle, allowing humans to deal with the class of all possible predators (1h11m33s).
• This abstracted battle is a way for humans to figure out how to deal with the unknown and the unpredictable, and to develop strategies for survival and success (1h11m41s).
• The idea of an arms race between predators and prey is a fascinating phenomenon that explains many of the remarkable traits and behaviors seen in the natural world (1h10m42s).
• The process of growth and transformation involves being open to new ideas and experiences, and being willing to challenge one's own assumptions and beliefs (1h8m24s).
• The story of Abraham is an example of the power of adventure and the voice of adventure, which can call individuals to leave their comfort zones and embark on a journey of transformation (1h8m51s).
• A meta-ethic is a stance that can be viewed from both a spiritual and physical perspective, and it involves a voluntary confrontation with something that would normally trigger a fear response (1h11m52s).
• In psychotherapy, exposing people to something they're afraid of can trigger a damaging stress response, but if they do it voluntarily, they exhibit a different pattern of psychophysiological activation, which is a stance of challenge rather than fear (1h12m5s).
• This voluntary confrontation can help people shift from a mode of apprehension and retreat to one of voluntary confrontation, allowing them to embody a pattern that can be practiced and potentially lead to epigenetic transformations (1h12m42s).
• The fight with a predator can be abstracted into the imaginal space, where various tactics are played out, conserved, and transmitted, adapting to the structure of human memory and forming the foundation for fundamental narratives (1h13m13s).
• References to stories like Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings, and The Avengers are not casual, as people spend a significant amount of computational power generating fictional worlds to portray meme battles (1h13m33s).
• The concept of a dragon can be seen as an abstracted predator and a deep meme, representing the idea of a predator rather than a specific one (1h14m1s).
• The idea of a predator meme can be discussed in the context of stories, where the concept of a predator is explored rather than a specific predator (1h14m10s).

Different kinds of minds, the logical extension of memes (1h14m30s)

• There are different kinds of minds, and a psychological trait known as openness fractionates into two types: one associated with a deep interest in ideas and preferring non-fiction, and the other associated with a deeper orientation towards the fictional and metaphorical (1h14m40s).
• The two pathways of openness need to unify, but it's unclear how to achieve this in the Western world, leading to a conflict between the scientific and the religious (1h15m18s).
• The concept of a meme, as formulated by Richard Dawkins, is similar to the work of Rene Girard, who details the spread of ideas across millennia, and is a logical extension of Dawkins' idea (1h16m8s).
• The idea of a meme as a unit of cultural transmission that spreads through imitation, rather than DNA replication, is a key concept in understanding how ideas spread and evolve (1h18m12s).
• Dawkins developed the idea of memes as a Darwinian, interested in the process of natural selection, and wanted to explore the possibility of other replicators beyond DNA (1h17m30s).
• Memes can spread through various means, including fashion, music, accents, and children's games, and are subject to a form of Darwinian selection based on their popularity, longevity, and fidelity (1h18m41s).
• The concept of archetypes may be compatible with the idea of memes, and could be a way in which certain memes spread more than others (1h19m12s).
• Dawkins' work on memes was influenced by his desire to explore the possibility of other replicators beyond DNA, and to make the point that DNA is not the only possible replicator (1h17m49s).
• The idea of memes has been influential in understanding the spread of ideas, and has been applied to various fields, including the study of religious ideas (1h19m42s).

The Baldwin effect applied to memes: a fundamental concordance (1h19m54s)

• A scenario is proposed where a meme has sufficient functional adaptive significance, allowing individuals who act it out to gain a reproductive edge, and this could lead to a Baldwin effect between the meme and the genome (1h19m56s).
• The heroic hunters of the past who decided to face down predators may have been acting under the impulse that this was the appropriate strategy, and this behavior could have been driven by a fundamental reproductive story meme that involves dominant men who can stand up to predators (1h20m23s).
• This meme is allied with the hero myth and seems to drive women's attraction to dominant men, with women being hypergamous and preferring men who are capable of standing up to predators (1h20m43s).
• The Baldwin effect is a genetic assimilation of a cultural or learned idea, where certain animals learn a clever trick and it spreads mimetically, and eventually, it becomes genetically assimilated into the genome (1h21m46s).
• The Baldwin effect could be the same pattern of archetype evolution that is implicit in Jungian theory, suggesting that Jungian archetypes might be genetically assimilated via the Baldwin effect (1h22m59s).
• The relationship between the spread of memes and the alteration of the genetic process by natural selection, particularly sexual selection, is worth exploring further, as it could help explain how memes develop and spread (1h23m37s).
• A meme that develops a representation and is embodied by individuals who are more effective in dealing with predators could lead to a concordance between that meme and the attractiveness of those males to females (1h23m53s).
• The Baldwin effect, a mechanism where a learned behavior becomes genetically assimilated, is a rapid process that could have contributed to the evolution of certain human traits, such as standing on hind legs, which may have been initially sexually selected and then genetically assimilated (1h24m10s).
• The idea of sacrifice is dramatized and ritualized in biblical narratives, and there is a concordance between the probability of sacrifice being offered and the ability of someone to forego gratification or work towards a future end (1h25m10s).
• The ability to forego gratification, associated with cortical development, is a great predictor of future success, and conscientiousness, which is the ability to delay gratification, is the best predictor of long-term future success that isn't cognitive (1h25m38s).
• The Potlatch phenomenon, where a great sacrifice is a social display of destruction of one's own property, indicates a person's willingness to distribute generously to the community and their faith in the process by which wealth was generated (1h26m8s).
• Women may use wealth as a marker of sexual attractiveness because wealth is the best single predictor of the ability to generate wealth, and the Potlatch is a manifestation of this, showing that it's not the wealth itself, but the capacity to generate wealth that's attractive (1h26m41s).
• There is a concordance between the concept of memes and the idea of fundamental narratives, where people who embody these narratives, such as heroes in theater, are attractive and embody a narrative meme (1h27m10s).
• In human society, people who act out the appropriate meme, such as heroes in theater, are attractive and embody a narrative meme, similar to how higher-status vervet monkeys are more attractive to other vervet monkeys (1h28m0s).
• A meta-strategy for dealing with predation involves approximating a balance between being able to stand up against predators and being a cooperative, generous partner, with this balance being a key factor in the sexual selection hierarchy (1h28m4s).
• Women's preferences in pornographic literature suggest they are attracted to individuals who can both protect them from predators and form intimate relationships, embodying a mix of "monster" and "cooperative distributor" traits (1h28m22s).
• The Baldwin effect, which refers to the idea that learned behaviors can influence the evolution of a species, may be applicable to the concept of memes and archetypes, with the "dragon" being a potential example of a Baldwin-ized meme (1h29m10s).
• The idea of the Baldwin effect is implicit in the writings of Carl Jung, who struggled to understand the concept of sexual selection and its relationship to archetypes (1h29m30s).
• The conversation between Richard Dawkins and Jordan Peterson has reached a point of agreement, with both parties acknowledging the significance of the relationship between memes, archetypes, and the Baldwin effect (1h30m8s).
• A secondary conversation between Dawkins and Peterson will be available on DailyWire Plus, where they will continue to explore the topics discussed in this conversation (1h29m55s).

Is Richard Dawkins more interested in things or people? (1h30m20s)

• A difference in temperamental approach is acknowledged between two individuals, with one person suggesting that Richard Dawkins may be more interested in things rather than people, which is a fundamental dimension of differing interest (1h30m26s).
• The preference for non-fiction, associated with a masculine proclivity, is linked to a tilt of interest towards the domain of things rather than the domain of people (1h30m52s).
• Richard Dawkins expresses interest in eternal things that were true before humans existed and will remain true after humans are extinct, which may exclude symbolism and metaphor (1h31m0s).
• The conversation is about to transition to the Daily Wire side, and viewers are invited to join for an additional 30 minutes of conversation (1h31m26s).
• Appreciation is expressed to Alex for hosting the conversation, the film crew in Scottsdale for their time and energy, and the audience for their time and attention (1h31m20s).