Smart sleep is worth the cost | The Vergecast

Intro (0s)

• The Vergecast is the flagship podcast of Quantified REM Cycles, hosted by David Pierce, who is currently playing Batman Arkham Shadow on the Quest 3 (0s).
• David Pierce enjoys playing games on the Quest 3 for short periods, usually 15 or 20 minutes, as it allows him to move around and get his blood flowing (13s).
• The podcast has received complaints about too many meta ads, but David Pierce assures listeners that his mention of the game is not an advertisement (1m0s).
• The podcast will cover two main topics: V Song's experiments with quantified sleep gadgets and Alison Johnson's thoughts on the AI DJ on Spotify (1m20s).
• V Song has tried various sleep gadgets, ranging from affordable to very expensive, and will discuss whether any of them have improved her sleep (1m25s).
• Alison Johnson wrote a piece about the AI DJ on Spotify, and David Pierce has some thoughts and disagreements with her views on the topic (1m41s).
• The podcast also includes a question from the hotline and other fun topics to be discussed later in the episode (1m57s).
• The Vergecast is supported by Postar, an electric performance car brand (2m7s).

Exploring Sleep Tracking Gadgets (2m18s)

• The discussion shifts from a car advertisement to the topic of tracking oneself and using wearables to get data about biometrics, specifically focusing on sleep, which is often overlooked in favor of exercise and food tracking (2m47s).
• The idea of the "Quantified self" is mentioned, referring to tracking something in order to be able to do it better, although this phrase is not particularly liked (2m58s).
• Improving sleep is considered a key factor in making people's lives better immediately, and V Song has been testing various sleep-related gadgets to see if they are worth the money and actually help with sleep (3m21s).
• V Song has been testing sleep gadgets for a long time, both as part of testing wearables and due to her personal desire to get more sleep, and has tried a range of products from cheap to absurdly expensive (3m33s).
• The conversation with V Song aims to explore whether any of the sleep tracking gadgets she has tried are actually worth the cost and effective in improving sleep (3m49s).

Deep Dive into Sleep Maxing (4m3s)

• Sleep tracking has become a mainstream trend, with many people focusing on improving their sleep quality, and this trend is attributed to the increasing awareness of the importance of sleep for overall health and well-being (5m7s).
• The emphasis on sleep is partly due to the feeling of existential dread and the desire to control aspects of life that can be managed, such as sleep, exercise, and diet (5m12s).
• Health-conscious individuals, particularly those in their 30s with disposable income, are more likely to prioritize sleep and invest in products that can help improve its quality (5m59s).
• Sleep maxing, or the practice of buying multiple products to hack sleep, is a convergence of late-stage capitalism and existential dread, with people seeking ways to improve their sleep and overall well-being (6m47s).
• Sleep is considered one of the three essential aspects of health, along with eating nutrient-dense foods and exercising regularly, and is often seen as the most manageable and cost-effective aspect to improve (5m49s).
• Improving sleep quality can have numerous benefits, including reduced anxiety, improved health, easier weight loss, and better mental health (6m22s).
• The idea that sleep is crucial for overall health is not new, but the current trend is driven by the widespread availability of sleep-tracking devices and the desire for control in a chaotic world (5m2s).
• The cost of improving sleep quality is often seen as more manageable compared to the costs associated with eating better and exercising regularly (7m29s).
• Sleep has no downsides and is enjoyable, making it the most desirable aspect of life to fix, with immediate gratification and no delayed results, unlike diet and exercise which require effort and time to see results (8m16s).
• Culturally, sleep is viewed positively, with people often sleeping with a smile on their face, and insomniacs typically looking unwell, highlighting the importance of sleep (8m57s).
• Sleep is the easiest thing to improve in life, with instant gratification and no complicatedness, unlike diet and exercise which require effort and delayed gratification (9m28s).
• There is a lot of "snake oil" in the sleep industry, particularly on platforms like TikTok, and it's best to assume that most products or methods advertised are nonsense (9m47s).
• The tech industry has two main challenges in improving sleep: accurately tracking sleep and providing actionable insights to improve sleep quality (10m6s).
• Sleep tracking technology has improved over time, but it's still not perfect, with most consumer-grade sleep trackers having an accuracy of around 70-80% compared to the clinical gold standard of polysomnography (11m24s).
• Even with the limitations of sleep tracking technology, it can still provide a baseline understanding of sleep patterns and help identify poor nights of sleep (11m41s).
• Sleep tracking can help identify trends and patterns in sleep, such as breathing disturbances, which may indicate sleep apnea, and suggest seeking medical attention, like getting a CPAP to improve sleep quality (11m46s).
• Having a sleep routine is valuable, and a sleep tracker can help build one by monitoring consistency in sleep and wake times, providing feedback on performance (12m8s).
• Sleep trackers can help identify patterns and trends, such as waking up frequently due to external factors like an angry cat, but may require manual tagging to track specific events (12m37s).
• The challenge with sleep tracking is that it often only provides basic information, like sleep and wake times, which may not be helpful for everyone (13m2s).
• Some sleep tracking devices, like the Sleep Number bed, can provide more valuable insights, such as a sleep score, which can help identify optimal sleep windows (13m48s).
• The Sleep Number bed's sleep score helped one user identify their optimal sleep window, which was 11:00 PM to 6:30 AM, and this information was helpful in improving their sleep quality (13m59s).
• Self-quantification, including sleep tracking, can take a long time to provide useful insights, but can make users more aware of their habits and help them identify areas for improvement (14m37s).
• Logging food and other habits can also provide valuable insights, such as identifying nutritional deficiencies, and can help users make positive changes to their behavior (15m2s).
• Logging stress eating habits can increase awareness of those habits, which is a primary benefit of tracking behaviors like sleep. (15m20s)
• Sleep tracking can provide insights into sleep patterns, but may not always account for external factors, such as having to care for a toddler during the night. (15m33s)
• A low sleep score notification may not be helpful in situations where sleep is disrupted by external factors, highlighting the limitations of sleep tracking devices. (15m36s)
• The process of improving sleep involves two steps: first, understanding one's current sleep patterns, and second, making changes to improve sleep quality. (15m58s)
• Wearable devices and sleep tracking technology can help with the first step, but the second step of making improvements can be more challenging. (16m5s)

The High-Tech Sleep Experience (16m11s)

• Smart sleep devices can help improve sleep quality by providing personalized recommendations and adjustments, such as prompting users to go for a walk to hit their goals, although these suggestions may not always be practical or desirable (16m11s).
• Investing in a good mattress is considered a worthwhile expense, as it can significantly impact sleep quality and overall health, with some people willing to spend large amounts of money on high-end mattresses or smart mattress covers (17m1s).
• The Eight Sleep Pod 4 Ultra is a smart mattress cover that can adjust the temperature and position of the bed to optimize sleep, including elevating the feet and minimizing snoring, with some users reporting positive results from using the device (16m45s).
• The device can also adjust the position of the bed while the user is sleeping to minimize snoring, with some users reporting a significant reduction in snoring after using the device (18m17s).
• The Eight Sleep Pod 4 Ultra has a base that can be manually elevated to a comfortable reading position, and it also has a special position that slightly elevates the feet for optimal sleep (17m54s).
• The device uses AI to adjust the position and temperature of the bed, and it has tubing inside the mattress that circulates water from a hub to regulate the temperature (19m14s).
• Some users prefer to sleep in a warm environment, with one user reporting that they like to keep their thermostat at a minimum of 75 degrees in the winter and use a heavy blanket year-round to stay warm (19m37s).
• The individual has a preference for sleeping in a warm and cozy environment, while their spouse prefers a colder setting, and they appreciate that their smart bed allows for different temperature settings on each side of the bed (20m2s).
• There is a lot of science about optimal temperatures and body positions for good sleep, and the smart bed's AI feature attempts to optimize these factors automatically, making adjustments throughout the night (20m54s).
• The AI feature is locked behind a subscription, which the individual acknowledges is ridiculous in principle, but they have seen significant improvements in their sleep quality despite this (21m22s).
• The smart bed's AI feature makes micro-adjustments to temperature and positioning during the night to help the individual sleep better, and it provides data on these adjustments in the morning (22m17s).
• The individual has seen significant improvements in their sleep quality over the past six months, with data from other sleep trackers corroborating these improvements, and they have also seen physical benefits such as gaining muscle and losing fat (22m47s).
• The individual has a history of insomnia and previously had poor sleep scores, but the smart bed has helped them sleep better and wake up feeling rested, even when going to bed at an early time (23m25s).
• The Eight Sleep mattress costs $4,799 and comes with a $300 per year subscription, raising the question of how much a good night's sleep is worth (23m45s).
• The Eight Sleep mattress is considered high-end but not the most expensive, with Sleep Number offering $10,000 beds, making the Eight Sleep mattress a mid-to-high-end option (24m17s).
• There have been sleep tracking apps and gadgets that attempt to track sleep, but they can be hit-or-miss, especially if you have pets or a bed partner (24m49s).
• The Amazon Halo Rise bedside lamp is a rare exception, as it can gently wake you up with light, which is an effective way to wake up naturally (24m55s).
• Smart lights can be a great alternative to alarms, as they can help wake you up naturally by simulating a sunrise (25m20s).
• Non-invasive sleep tracking devices, such as those that sit on a nightstand, can be inaccurate if you have pets or a bed partner (25m38s).
• The Withings Sleep is a budget-friendly option that tracks sleep by placing a pad under your mattress, making it a great option for those who don't want to spend thousands of dollars on a smart mattress (25m58s).
• Trying a high-end product, such as the Eight Sleep mattress, can be a double-edged sword, as it can be difficult to go back to a lower-end product after experiencing the benefits of a high-end product (26m41s).
• There are cheaper versions of smart home devices that can be used to hack together a smart sleep setup, making it a more affordable option for those who want to try out smart sleep technology (27m6s).
• Smart home devices, such as smart lights and thermostats, can help create a sleep-conducive environment by allowing users to program and schedule settings to promote a natural wake-up routine and a comfortable sleeping temperature (27m22s).
• These devices are often more affordable and have multi-functional purposes, making them a more accessible option for improving sleep quality (27m49s).
• The effectiveness of a smart bed is subjective and depends on individual preferences and needs, with some people finding it worthwhile for a good night's sleep, while others may not need it (28m0s).
• For those who struggle with sleep, investing in a smart bed or other sleep-enhancing devices can be a worthwhile investment, as it can significantly improve the quality of sleep (28m39s).
• Unlike other luxury items, a smart bed is something that will be used regularly, making it a more practical investment for those who value a good night's sleep (28m55s).
• A more affordable version of the smart bed, with a lower price point, would be a more appealing option for those who want to try out the technology without breaking the bank (29m12s).
• Other sleep-enhancing devices, such as smart pillows and sleep buds, can also be effective in improving sleep quality, particularly for those who live in noisy environments (29m21s).
• The Bose sleep buds and Oslo sleep buds are examples of sleep-enhancing devices that can help mask noise and improve sleep quality, with the Bose design being particularly suitable for side sleepers (29m50s).
• The Oslo sleep buds are expected to come with sleep tracking features in 2025, further enhancing their functionality (31m9s).
• There's potential for earbuds to be more than they currently are, especially with the addition of sleep tracking features, as the ears are an interesting place for wearables, particularly for helping users fall asleep and wake up gently (31m15s).
• A device that sits in the ears all night could offer more features than a standard tracker, such as helping users fall asleep, which is a common issue for many people (31m53s).
• Smart alarm clocks and devices like the Hatch Restore have been tried, but they may not work for everyone, and having a sleep partner may not be effective either (32m13s).
• Investing in sleep, whether through a $5,000 mattress cover or other devices, is crucial and should not be cheapened, as it can have a significant impact on one's life (32m59s).
• A particular sleep device has changed someone's life, but due to editorial policies, it will have to be returned or destroyed, which is a problem since it contains biological material (33m20s).
• The device may be purchased for long-term sleep testing or personal use, despite the cost, as it has significantly improved the user's sleep quality (34m11s).
• The cost of the device, including an absurd subscription, will be worth it for the user, who is willing to figure out financing and make it work (34m41s).

AI DJ and Music App Discussion (34m47s)

• The discussion transitions from a previous topic to a new one about music, specifically the AI DJ feature on Spotify, which uses an AI-generated voice to create a constantly updated, curated playlist of music the user would like (36m28s).
• The AI DJ feature allows users to press play and have music they'll enjoy without needing to manually create a playlist, which is seen as a powerful and convenient feature (36m54s).
• Allison Johnson, a team member, has been testing AI DJ features and has thoughts on the matter, prompting a discussion to hash out the pros and cons (37m1s).
• The conversation is also related to a bigger story about finding the best music app, as the speaker is looking for alternatives to Spotify and seeking Allison's help to explore options (37m12s).
• The discussion is taking place despite it being Allison's day off, and her participation is appreciated (37m28s).

The AI DJ Dilemma (37m38s)

• The conversation begins with a discussion about AI DJs, specifically Spotify's AI DJ, which has been around for about a year but recently caught attention (37m39s).
• Spotify, like other tech companies, has been incorporating AI into its app, and the AI DJ feature is one of these implementations (38m10s).
• The AI DJ talks to the user, addressing them by name, and launches into a DJ-style introduction before playing music that the user is likely to enjoy, based on their listening history (38m33s).
• The AI DJ's music selection is not surprising, given that Spotify has extensive data on the user's music preferences (38m50s).
• The user experimented with the AI DJ feature for a day and intermittently throughout a week to understand its functionality and purpose (39m5s).
• The AI DJ's personalized greeting and music selection raise interesting questions about its value and implications (39m19s).
• The user's initial reaction to the AI DJ was curiosity, but they also acknowledge that their description of the feature sounds appealing, highlighting the complexity of their opinion on the matter (39m16s).

The Human Touch in Music (39m27s)

• A local radio station in Seattle, KEXP, is mentioned as a daily habit with DJs that create a sense of parasocial relationships with listeners, making them feel like real humans and even local celebrities in a musically inclined town (39m38s).
• The DJs at KEXP are so well-known that encountering them in public, such as seeing Kevin Cole on a bike path, can be a notable experience and make the listener feel like they've seen a celebrity (40m11s).
• Having favorite radio DJs and viewing them as real people can create skepticism towards AI DJs, which may be perceived as imitations of human DJs (40m42s).
• The skepticism towards AI DJs can be seen as a metaphor for the broader issues with AI, highlighting the need to understand what feels wrong about AI systems (41m10s).
• The discussion around AI DJs raises questions about the nature of AI and its ability to replicate human experiences, with the example of AI DJs serving as a useful case study for exploring these issues (41m24s).

AI's Role in Music Curation (41m25s)

• AI-powered music curation can create playlists that are tailored to an individual's tastes, but may lack personal connection or discovery, as it often plays music the user already likes, with the example given being a playlist that played nine songs in a row by an artist found on TikTok, followed by 80s pop music by Cynthia, resulting in a "no skips" playlist for an hour and a half (41m26s).
• The use of AI in music curation raises questions about whether this type of product is a good idea and whether it provides any value to the user, beyond simply playing music they already enjoy (42m14s).
• AI-powered music curation can also be seen as trying to mimic human interaction, but may come across as insincere or unconvincing, with the example given being a DJ feature that sounds like a person talking to the user, but feels like an unnecessary use of AI (42m30s).
• Some users may prefer traditional AI-powered playlist features, such as those offered by Spotify, which can create playlists based on specific genres or moods, without the need for a simulated human DJ (43m11s).
• The use of AI in music curation can be seen as a straightforward attempt to mimic human interaction, but may not be the most effective or desirable use of the technology (42m43s).

The Echo Chamber Effect (43m31s)

• The concept of AI-generated music and radio stations is discussed, with the idea that some people may prefer a human touch, while others are fine with AI-driven interactions, especially in transactional settings (43m32s).
• The example of Apple Music's celebrity-driven radio stations is mentioned, with the initial skepticism that people wouldn't want to listen to curated playlists, but it turned out to be a successful concept (44m11s).
• There are two types of music consumption preferences: having access to a vast library of music and being able to choose specific songs or albums, and having AI-driven playlists that expand one's musical horizons (44m50s).
• However, AI-driven playlists may not be successful in expanding one's musical tastes, as they often focus on playing songs that the listener already likes, which can become repetitive and unfulfilling (45m11s).
• The experience of listening to human-curated playlists, such as those from KEXP, is compared to a well-rounded meal, with a mix of familiar and new music, whereas AI-driven playlists are like eating only one's favorite food, which can become overwhelming (45m42s).
• The idea is that human-curated playlists can provide a sense of community and meaningful experiences, which AI-driven playlists may not be able to replicate (45m30s).
• The example of hearing a familiar song, such as Tears for Fears, in a public place is mentioned, highlighting the difference in experience between human-curated and AI-driven music consumption (46m18s).

Balancing AI and Human Interaction (46m24s)

• The concept of AI-generated music playlists and their ability to introduce new music to users is discussed, with the example of a favorite DJ playing a song on KEXP that resonates with the listener (46m34s).
• The idea of playing music that users may not like is explored, with the argument that it's good and important to be exposed to new things, but also acknowledging the desire to turn off the radio when hearing something unpleasant (46m46s).
• The responsibility of AI-generated playlists to inject randomness into users' lives is questioned, and the potential for personalization to create an "echo chamber" effect is noted (47m30s).
• The idea that AI can get better at balancing comfort music with new discoveries is discussed, but it's also suggested that human curation is valuable because humans have a reason for playing certain songs, making users more likely to give them a chance (49m5s).
• The difference in user reaction to human vs. AI curation is highlighted, with users being more offended when an AI plays something they don't like, as if the AI "should know" their preferences (49m34s).
• The example of Spotify's algorithm attempting to introduce new music to users, but being met with resistance, is given, illustrating the challenge of finding the right balance between comfort and discovery (49m59s).
• Recommendation systems, such as those used by Spotify and Netflix, rely on algorithms to suggest content to users, but these systems lack the personal touch and trust that comes with a human recommendation (50m41s).
• A recommendation from someone a user trusts is a powerful predictor of whether they will like the suggested content, as it taps into human nature and the user's affinity for the person making the recommendation (50m44s).
• Even if an algorithm like Netflix's is statistically correct in its recommendations, users are still more likely to trust and enjoy content recommended by a person they know and like (51m10s).
• The intention behind AI-driven recommendations can be unclear, leading to a sense of distrust, as users may feel that the AI is primarily motivated by a desire to keep them using the service rather than a genuine interest in their preferences (51m56s).
• The use of AI in recommendation systems may be "barking up the wrong tree" if it cannot replicate the trust and personal connection that comes with human recommendations, but it is also possible that a more convincing AI voice could overcome this limitation (51m20s).
• The line between human and AI curation can be blurred, as in the case of radio DJs who curate music as part of their job, but the intention behind AI-driven recommendations is often less clear and may be perceived as more robotic (51m45s).

Exploring Alternatives and Recommendations (52m29s)

• The music industry has become increasingly reliant on algorithms and machines, leading to a loss of human touch and curation in music discovery, with even radio DJs being replaced by automated systems (52m29s).
• Spotify's curated playlists, which were once a mix of human and machine curation, have shifted more towards machine-driven recommendations, resulting in a loss of personal touch and discovery (53m11s).
• The use of AI in music curation, such as Spotify's Daily Mixes, can lead to a passive listening experience, where users don't engage with the music on a deeper level and can't recall specific songs or artists (54m15s).
• The over-reliance on algorithms can result in users getting stuck in a loop of similar music, leading to a lack of discovery and exploration of new genres and artists (55m6s).
• Human-curated playlists and radio shows, such as those found on KEXP, can provide a more dynamic and engaging listening experience, introducing users to new music and artists they may not have discovered otherwise (55m52s).
• The Spotify algorithm, while effective in recommending music, can become repetitive and predictable, making it gratifying to discover new music through human curation (56m9s).
• The idea of AI-generated music and personalized playlists has become increasingly popular, with companies like Spotify achieving success in this area, but there's a need to shift the focus from AI being the main character to being more like crucial infrastructure that enables other things to work seamlessly (56m21s).
• The current state of AI interaction can be seen as cringeworthy, with many people not wanting to interact with AI entities, but rather use them to access content they enjoy, such as music or social media updates from friends (57m4s).
• The goal should be to make AI work in the background, like TCP/IP, so that users don't have to think about it, and it enables other experiences to happen (57m19s).
• When it comes to music consumption, having a personalized playlist can be beneficial, but it can also lead to a lack of discovery and a repetitive listening experience (57m56s).
• A possible solution is to have different genres or playlists for different activities or times of the day, allowing for a mix of familiar and new music (58m4s).
• Listening to music with a human touch, such as radio or podcasts, can provide a more dynamic and engaging experience, with peaks and valleys that are harder to replicate with AI-generated playlists (59m13s).
• The value of human curation and the imperfections that come with it can make for a more enjoyable and relatable listening experience (59m30s).
• Companies and products will likely try to emulate the experience of human-curated music, but it's uncertain whether they will be successful (1h0m0s).
• KEXP is a great option for those looking for a unique music experience, as it is a streaming worldwide online radio station that offers a diverse range of music and is not just limited to computers or algorithms (1h0m19s).
• Many people have their favorite indie radio stations, and it's great to hear that these stations are still thriving in a time dominated by optimized music platforms like Spotify (1h0m47s).
• YouTube is a surprisingly rich place for discovering new music and radio-like content, with many creators offering long DJ sets and mixes of different genres (1h1m7s).
• There are also many endlessly streaming YouTube stations that offer a wide range of music and are worth exploring (1h1m50s).
• John Mayer's Apple Music radio station is a great example of a well-curated music experience, despite personal opinions about the artist (1h2m6s).
• Sudan Archives is a great artist to check out, with a unique sound and style that is worth exploring (1h2m31s).
• Casey Musgraves is another great artist who has been gaining popularity and is worth listening to (1h2m46s).
• The Pulstar 3 is an all-electric SUV that offers a unique blend of performance and range, with features like computer-controlled torque vectoring and a minimalist interior design (1h3m15s).
• The discussion begins with a commercial for the Pstar 3 SUV, highlighting its features such as an intuitive infotainment screen and an uncluttered dashboard, before transitioning to the main topic (1h3m54s).
• The hotline number and email for the show are provided, and the hosts express gratitude to viewers who have shared their thoughts on how to cover politics and the next Trump administration (1h4m20s).
• A question from Pete in North Carolina is presented, where he seeks advice on purchasing a Frame TV, as he has never bought a TV before and is considering it due to the central location in his main room and the need to minimize glare (1h5m9s).
• Pete mentions that he can find 50-55 inch TVs at Best Buy for $200-$300, but the Frame TV costs over $1,000, and he is unsure if it is worth the investment (1h6m6s).
• Nei Patel is brought in to answer Pete's question, and she responds by stating that the question implies the destruction of the film and TV industry as we know it, and that Pete may not actually want a TV, but rather feels obligated to have one due to cultural norms (1h6m41s).
• Nei suggests that Pete's desire for a TV that prioritizes its appearance when turned off, such as the Frame TV, is a sign that he may not actually need or want a TV, and that this mindset could lead to a future where people no longer feel the need to own a TV (1h7m20s).
• The assumption that everyone will watch TV is no longer valid, and this change in mindset can significantly impact how people approach TV ownership and viewing habits (1h7m40s).
• The idea of having a TV is often taken for granted, as seen in home renovation shows where the TV is always present, but its placement is often an afterthought (1h7m54s).
• Spending money on a high-end TV like the Frame TV may not be necessary if the primary goal is to watch TV occasionally, as a cheaper option like a $200 55-inch TV on a roller stand could suffice (1h8m49s).
• The Frame TV's picture quality is compromised, but its design features, such as the matte finish and art store, are prioritized by many users who value aesthetics over picture quality (1h9m33s).
• There are now cheaper alternatives to the Frame TV, such as options from TCL and Hisense, which offer similar features at a lower price point (1h10m16s).
• The Frame TV's art store is a unique feature, but users may not be willing to pay $50 a month for it, and instead opt for a different matte finish TV and display their own pictures (1h10m30s).
• The decision to buy a TV should be based on individual needs and priorities, rather than trying to find the "best" TV, as Pete's approach of not caring about the TV and just needing a basic solution is a valid one (1h11m0s).