Rethinking the social network with Andy Dunn from Pie

The Challenge of Adult Friendships and the Rise of Pie

• Making friends as an adult, especially while working remotely, can be challenging despite the rise of social and friendship apps, with people often longing for in-person connections that aren't focused on URLs (8s).
• Andy Dunn is the founder of Pie, an app that helps people host gatherings and make genuine friendships (23s).
• Pie aims to empower people to meet and connect in person, addressing the issue of social isolation (12s).
• According to the Surgeon General, people have lost 24 hours per month of in-person time together over the last 20 years, exacerbating the problem of social isolation (1m38s).
• The decline of institutions such as religious organizations, unions, and the PTA, as well as the rise of smartphones and social media, have contributed to the decrease in platonic friendships and feelings of community belonging (2m5s).
• Pie's mission is to bring people back to in-person connections and platonic friendships, inspired by the Greek concepts of Agape, Filia, and Storge (2m35s).
• The app works by presenting users with opportunities to participate in social activities, aiming to break the habit of excessive phone scrolling and encourage people to go out and engage in social events (3m17s).
• Pie uses social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok to reach users and increase the liquidity of social opportunities (3m19s).
• The app's goal is to help people meet new friends and build meaningful relationships, addressing the issue of social isolation and promoting a sense of community belonging (2m49s).

Addressing the Social Capacity-Supply Gap

• There are specific life stages where people have more social capacity than social supply, such as moving to a new place, friends getting into relationships, friends leaving town, friends having kids, new job, divorce, or empty nest, where individuals are more desirous of having more social connections (3m36s).
• To address this, social activities and groups can be created, such as the Sunday morning Club, which was started by Kyle in Chicago and has grown from 10 to 400-600 attendees, offering activities like beach volleyball, cold plunges, yoga, and healthy snacks (4m11s).
• Another example is Mary's "Show and Tell for Adults," where participants bring an artifact from their life and talk about it for five minutes, encouraging vulnerable disclosure and platonic friendship formation (4m55s).

The Key Ingredients of Platonic Friendship Formation and the Rise of IRL Creators

• Platonic friendship formation requires two key ingredients: running into someone five to seven times in a group setting and mutual disclosure of something personal and vulnerable (5m16s).
• To enable people's social connections, a new gig economy of "IRL creators" is needed, who can bring others together and create communities, which is why the Piie Creator fund was launched to stimulate and fund these creators (5m41s).
• Artificial intelligence is also being used to take data and figure out who's going to click, such as in Sam's "Spark Connections," which groups people into dinner parties using an intake quiz and a simple model (6m2s).
• The goal is for Pi to eventually become the host that brings people together, using technology to figure out who might click without needing a human host (6m31s).

The Demand for Real-Life Connection Apps and Pie's Approach

• The demand for apps and platforms that help people build real-life connections is high, and while there is competition in the space, there are inflection points that make a new opportunity possible (6m58s).
• There is a deeper cultural understanding of social isolation, loneliness, and depression among Gen Z, who are more comfortable articulating these challenges than previous generations, including Millennials (7m26s).
• A different business model is being pursued, which involves stimulating the hard side of the market, such as paying creators and hosts, rather than charging them, as seen in the Meetup and Eventbrite models (7m44s).
• The concept of a "cold start problem" in building a social network or marketplace is discussed, referencing Andrew Chen's book, and how it can be solved by stimulating the hard side of the market (7m57s).
• The idea is to pay creators and hosts, such as those who bring people together, rather than charging them, similar to how Uber pays its drivers, and how Airbnb doesn't charge its superhosts (8m38s).

The Role of Shared Background and Reciprocal Questions in Friendship Formation

• Large language models (LLMs) enable the analysis of data to determine who is likely to click with whom, based on previously ineffable commonalities, such as personality and upbringing, rather than just interests (9m2s).
• Research has shown that common interests, such as sports teams or hobbies, are not the primary factors in forming friendships, but rather esoteric reasons, such as being candid or having a common background (9m30s).
• The importance of reciprocal questions in forming friendships is highlighted, with a lack of reciprocal questions being a negative factor, and common background and upbringing being a positive factor (9m50s).
• The goal is to create a ritual of repeated social interactions, rather than one-off meetups, to reduce pressure and increase the likelihood of forming friendships (10m36s).
• Meetup members are willing to pay for being directed to meetups with a high probability of social connection, and the focus is on creating a ritual of repeated interactions to facilitate this (10m26s).
• The goal is to productize organic and natural behavior that leads to forming friendships, where people click with each other and start spending time together, eventually realizing they are friends (10m52s).

Building Pie: From Pumpkin Pie to a Platform for Connection

• Building a product that caters to different markets, such as cities and remote areas, requires balancing various needs and demographics, as people in cities may have more opportunities to socialize, while those in remote areas may be more isolated and need the product more (11m14s).
• The company, initially named Pumpkin Pie, was founded in 2019, and the idea began to take shape on Thanksgiving Day, but it wasn't an overnight success, and the company has been iterating and working on the problem for about four years (11m53s).
• The founder found it difficult to get attention for the product in New York City, where many consumer internet founders were experimenting with similar ideas, but after moving back to Chicago, the founder experienced the problem of loneliness more acutely (12m3s).
• The founder had a rich family life in Chicago, but after a close friend, Jim, left town, the founder felt lonely and realized the importance of platonic friendships and a sense of tribal belonging, which was missing in the remote work era (12m22s).
• The founder's previous company, Bonobos, had a special culture that provided a sense of belonging, but as a founder and CEO of a new company, the founder missed the social aspect of in-person work and the opportunity to make friends and lead people (13m3s).

Remote Work, Socialization, and Building a Thriving Company Culture

• The founder believes that remote work or hybrid work may be beneficial for some people, but not for everyone, and that it's essential to consider the needs of people in different stages of their lives, particularly those in their 20s who may be missing out on in-person mentorship and socialization (13m39s).
• The founder thinks that society should not optimize professional life solely around the needs of middle-aged working parents, as they already have many opportunities, and instead, should consider the needs of others, such as young people who are just starting their careers (14m3s).
• A company was built in Chicago, becoming one of the most desirable places to work in the city due to the lack of consumer internet action in the area, with no $10 billion public companies in consumer software having been built there (14m17s).
• The company focused on building a great culture, recruiting people who value in-person interactions, and growing the Creator Community in the Joiner Community, finding a deeper hunger for it than initially expected (14m47s).
• The company is expanding into neglected markets, moving from Chicago to cities like Nashville, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Austin, and Kansas City, and then to the suburbs, targeting young people who are bored and lack a rich social life (15m11s).
• The suburbs are seen as a rich ground for the company to take off, with many startups and venture capitalists neglecting these areas, often referring to them as "flyover country" (16m2s).
• The company's approach is different from the typical startup strategy of starting in cities like New York or San Francisco, instead focusing on the Midwest and suburbs (15m6s).

Building a Consumer Movement and the Lessons from Bonobos

• The company's goal is to create a consumer movement and change in the Zeitgeist, similar to the approach taken with Bonobos, an apparel company that aimed to get straight guys to care about how their butts look in pants and invest in higher-quality clothing (16m19s).
• Bonobos was one of the first digital brands in the United States, but it turned out that building a brand purely on the internet was not a good business model, and the company had to open physical stores and partner with wholesalers like Nordstrom (17m11s).
• Building a successful consumer movement requires two key elements: a change in the Zeitgeist and a new business model based on a technology inflection point, as seen in the success of apps like Hinge, Tinder, and Bumble, which have made online dating a viable option (17m45s).
• The business model for consumer software is different from e-commerce, with no stores, leases, inventory, or operations, allowing for greater leverage in impact relative to the number of people and team built (18m30s).
• This difference is exemplified by companies like Instagram and YouTube, which were acquired for billions of dollars with relatively small teams of 12-55 people (19m4s).
• Building a global consumer app is challenging, with many attempts failing, but the potential for success is high (19m29s).

Mental Health, Founder Experiences, and the Genesis of Pie

• The founder's personal experience with mental health, specifically bipolar type one, and their journey with Bonobos influenced their decision to start Pi, which addresses social isolation and mental health issues (19m52s).
• The idea for Pi was not a direct result of the founder's mental health journey, but rather a great idea that they wanted to pursue, which happened to be tied to their experiences (20m8s).
• The founder's mental health struggles were addressed through a series of fortunate events, including family support, finding the right medication, and working with a great doctor (20m35s).
• The biggest opportunities in mental health lie in access to care and cost of care, but many companies have already started addressing these issues, making it a challenging space to enter (21m6s).
• The customer acquisition cost equation in mental health tech is extremely difficult, requiring governmental change, payers to change, and corporations to change how they think about mental health (21m25s).
• Building a mental health insurance product requires knowledge of healthcare and its idiosyncrasies, which is not a space that can be easily entered without expertise (21m43s).
• The problem of people needing more friendship in their lives cannot be solved pharmacologically, and building an app with gamification to help people meet others is a more appealing problem to solve (22m1s).
• Having bipolar disorder and experiencing the problem of not having good friends in a new city led to the realization that building a solution for social connections was a more authentic problem to solve (22m21s).
• Lived experience with a condition does not necessarily mean having the background to lobby for new drug pricing or navigate the complexities of the healthcare system (23m13s).
• Having unfair advantages, such as building consumer movements, digital business model innovation, and the ability to build a world-class team, is crucial for executing a solution to a problem (23m30s).
• Building a mental health product that requires knowledge of the payer ecosystem and relationships is a challenging task that requires specific expertise (23m56s).

Maintaining a Healthy Headspace and Avoiding Founder Burnout

• Building a company like Pi requires a different mindset and approach to avoid founder burnout and mental health pitfalls, and establishing a healthy headspace is crucial (24m18s).
• To maintain a healthy headspace, specific tactics such as using a lock box for the phone, setting it to red light mode, and locking it away at night can help avoid staying wired late and reduce phone addiction (24m45s).
• Establishing a boundary with the digital leash by locking the phone for 24 hours from Friday to Saturday can also help in fully unplugging and recharging (25m35s).
• Sleeping 8 hours a night is essential, and it's a significant change from the past when low sleep was glamorized as a founder, but now it's understood that 8 hours of sleep is necessary for better brain function and productivity (25m48s).
• Working out three days a week has been life-changing, and it's essential to prioritize energy and physical health (26m31s).
• Giving up drugs and alcohol has also been beneficial, and it's recommended to avoid substances that can negatively impact physical and mental health (26m42s).
• Regular therapy sessions, twice a week, can help in getting feelings out of the body and maintaining mental well-being (27m20s).
• Being honest with loved ones, such as a spouse, and deriving meaning from relationships can also contribute to a healthy headspace (27m25s).
• Parenting can provide a sense of purpose and help in prioritizing what matters most in life (27m31s).
• By making these lifestyle changes, it's possible to feel more capable of building something great and avoiding the pitfalls that came with building a previous company, Bonobos (27m41s).

The Demands of Startup Life and the Importance of Support Systems

• The conversation around mental health and founder burnout has increased since the pandemic, but it still requires a significant amount of time and effort to build something transformative, with 50-60 hours of work per week being a more realistic expectation than 40 hours (27m58s).
• Building a startup can be all-consuming and invasive, requiring a significant amount of time and energy, and it's essential to accept that it will invade your brain and life for an extended period, potentially 15 years or more (28m46s).
• Founders need to accept that they will not have a traditional work-life balance and that their personal life will be affected, requiring them to prioritize and manage their energy to maintain healthy relationships (29m26s).
• Having a supportive partner who understands the demands of startup life can be helpful, as seen in the case of the speaker and their wife, who both work long hours and have a shared understanding of the challenges (29m44s).
• Living near family members, particularly parents, can be a significant life hack for founders, providing a support system and allowing for a better quality of life, as seen in the speaker's experience of living near their parents and being able to drop off their son with them (30m8s).
• When deciding to start a company, it's essential to consider the overall architecture of your life, including your season of life, financial stability, and support system, to ensure that you have the necessary infrastructure to succeed (30m53s).

Cultural Differences in Living Arrangements and Social Isolation

• Europeans and Americans often have differing views on living arrangements, with Europeans typically living with their families until marriage and Americans often moving out at 18, leading to discussions on which approach is better (31m27s).
• Young people in America may be in a socially isolated spot due to factors such as cars, lack of community infrastructure, and moving away from their nuclear families at a young age (31m46s).
• The contrast between American and European lifestyles can be seen in the example of Rio de Janeiro, where people prioritize quality of life, have a more relaxed attitude towards time, and often stay in the city their whole lives (32m32s).
• Despite the high standard of living in the United States, many Gen Z individuals are not satisfied with the current state of affairs, as seen in the presidential election results, where a decreasing percentage of women in Gen Z voted for Harris compared to Biden (33m38s).
• Gen Z team members often prioritize meaning over profit and money, but are still willing to work hard for a cause they believe in, as seen in the example of the team at Pie, where employees are engaged and motivated by their work (33m46s).
• Different people and societies can make different choices about their priorities and lifestyles, and it's essential to honor this nuance and allow individuals to make choices that work best for them (34m40s).

Building a Platform for Connection and Growth

• The role involves offering a choice that is declining, which is an opportunity to learn and ascend professionally, and doing it in a city with a limited startup ecosystem (34m50s).
• The goal is to create a platform that can put groups together without requiring an in-real-life (IRL) creator, using large language models (LLMs) to facilitate connections (36m25s).
• The team is working on deploying this "magic factor" and has some no-code testing live, including an experiment called Spark Connections, which had 12 groups of six having dinner and meeting up afterwards (37m1s).
• One of the main objectives is to grow from 30,000 monthly active users to a million in the next 13 months, which is extremely difficult to do (37m11s).
• The third goal is to monetize the platform, with two experiments running: one on the venue side and the other on the Joiner side, including a premium offering on the Joiner side (37m38s).
• The target is to have 5-10% of users paying for the premium service, similar to other platforms like Spotify, Duolingo, or chess.com (37m47s).
• The overall objective is to achieve what is called "Triple M": million monthly actives, some magic in the product, and monetization experimentation starting to bear fruit (37m59s).

Reflections on Pie and the Future of Social Connection

• The conversation with Andy Dunn has concluded, and the hosts are reflecting on their discussion about the social network app Pie. (38m11s)
• Pie does not currently match people based on shared hobbies, but this could be a potential future feature, as people often meet through shared interests. (38m26s)
• The hosts consider how people meet in different environments, such as cities versus suburbs, and how this might impact the use of the Pie app. (39m5s)
• In suburban areas, people may feel more isolated and have fewer opportunities to meet others, making it harder for the app to connect people. (39m8s)
• In contrast, cities offer more activities and events, making it easier for people to connect, but they may not need the app as much. (39m17s)
• The hosts struggle to picture the target market for the Pie app, considering how people of different ages and backgrounds meet others in their daily lives. (39m27s)
• The hosts reflect on their own experiences meeting people in different contexts, such as through schools, community events, or clubs in cities. (39m31s)
• They acknowledge that their perception of the app may be skewed due to their base in New York City, where there are many opportunities to meet people with shared interests. (40m22s)
• They express a desire to gain an outside perspective on the app, such as from someone living in a suburban area with fewer opportunities to meet others. (40m56s)
• There are many apps trying to connect people and encourage them to go outside and engage in activities that are not focused on the digital sphere, indicating a market and a need for such platforms (41m29s).
• Research has shown that people's mental health can benefit from choosing to go out and do things they are interested in, rather than staying at home and being isolated (42m16s).
• Humans are not wired to be online all the time, and taking breaks from digital social media can have a positive impact on one's mental health (42m39s).
• The concept of "brain rot" refers to the idea that excessive internet use can lead to a disconnection from reality and a reliance on online culture and language (43m3s).
• The importance of balancing online and offline activities is highlighted, with the recognition that anything that gets people outside and offline is good for society (42m58s).
• Personal experiences of feeling too deeply invested in online culture and recognizing the need to disconnect and engage in in-person events are shared (43m52s).
• The conversation touches on Andy Dunn's history of building companies and his struggles with mental health issues (44m27s).
• The idea of building a phone jail to lock away one's phone for a day is considered, but it's acknowledged that having the key nearby would defeat the purpose, and it's hard to resist the temptation of checking social media or news at 1:00 in the morning (44m36s).
• The importance of getting 8 hours of sleep is emphasized, and it's noted that hustle culture in startups can be detrimental to one's well-being, with some companies expecting employees to work 7 days a week and 60 hours a week (45m13s).
• There's a debate about the future of work, with some companies trying to get employees back into the office, while others prefer a hybrid or remote work setup, and it's hard to decide which one is the future (46m32s).
• Some people crave the social interactions and random encounters that come with working in an office 5 days a week, and this is something that Pie, a social network, is trying to replicate (46m50s).
• The host acknowledges that they wouldn't sign up for Pie, but understands that there are people who want something like it, and encourages others to try it out (47m11s).
• The host is anti-hustle culture and pro-lazy culture, pro-nap culture, and pro-couch culture, and prefers to work from home (45m51s).
• The debate about remote work versus office work is expected to continue, with some companies trying to get employees back into the office, while others prefer a more flexible setup (46m5s).