The future of the Kindle with Panos Panay | The Vergecast

Intro (0s)

• The Vergecast podcast is hosted by Nilay Patel and David Pierce, and they discuss various tech-related topics, including their bets on Tesla's Robo taxi announcement and Amazon's Kindle event (0s).
• The hosts review their predictions from the previous week, including David's regret for not pushing harder on the idea that the Robo taxi would be something people could buy (1m37s).
• Nilay mentions that the Robo taxi event featured a Cyber cab and a robo van, which he refers to as the "Roven," although he believes it's actually called the "robo van" (2m22s).
• The hosts discuss the news from the Robo taxi event, including the ability to take a robo taxi between different spots on the Warner Brothers lot, one of which was themed after Westworld (2m42s).
• Nilay jokes that the name "Roven" might be a reference to the TV show Westworld, but he prefers to call it the "robo van" (2m37s).
• The hosts also mention that Amazon's Panos Panay appeared on the show to discuss the Kindle event, but declined to comment on the company's plans for the future (56s).
• The episode will also feature a lightning round and a discussion of other tech-related news, including Apple's new iPad minis and a Nintendo 64 emulator (51s).

Tesla's CyberCab and Robovan (4m9s)

• The Cyber Cab, a two-seater car with bat wings, is supposedly going to be available in 2027 and cost less than $30,000, but it's unclear how serious the project is (4m10s).
• The conversation about the Cyber Cab is happening in the context of SpaceX catching the Starship booster on the launch, which is an impressive achievement (4m39s).
• Elon Musk's companies, such as SpaceX and Tesla, have different levels of success, with SpaceX being more reliable in achieving its goals, while Tesla has been promising many things that haven't arrived yet (4m52s).
• It's possible to separate the accomplishments of SpaceX and Tesla, as they are fundamentally unrelated, and Elon Musk's success in one area doesn't necessarily translate to another (5m20s).
• SpaceX has little competition, and the government has largely given the company everything it needs, whereas Tesla faces fierce competition (5m36s).
• The people who conflate the accomplishments of SpaceX and Tesla are overrating the extent to which a CEO is a company, and it's useful to think of each company as separate entities run by different people (6m9s).
• Elon Musk's companies, such as X and Tesla, are increasingly aligned in strange and odd ways, but it's still useful to separate them and consider SpaceX as a separate entity run by Gwynne Shotwell (6m41s).
• The Cyber Cab prototype is not necessarily evidence of a real, self-driving car, as prototypes and controlled demonstrations have been around for a long time (7m24s).
• The idea of the Cyber Cab strikes some as completely ridiculous, but it's unclear where on the spectrum of "nothing to something" the project actually is (8m2s).
• The Cybercab, a proposed two-seater car, has several issues, including decreased usability and impracticality in real-world scenarios, such as city traffic, and its design doesn't make sense (8m7s).
• The announcement of inductive charging for the Cybercab is also problematic, as the technology does not yet exist for a car of its size (8m30s).
• The mathematics behind the Cybercab's proposed business model, including liability, maintenance, and profit splits, have not been announced, making it unclear how the service would work (8m41s).
• The idea of using the Cybercab as a Robo taxi, which would allow owners to make money while the car is in use, is also unclear, with questions about liability and maintenance responsibility (8m57s).
• The promise of full self-driving capabilities for Model 3 and Model Y buyers, which would allow them to use their cars as Robo taxis, has not yet been fulfilled, despite being an explicit promise from Elon Musk and Tesla (10m36s).
• It is also unclear which version of the car will support this feature, with conflicting statements from Elon Musk and the head of design at Tesla (11m1s).
• The investment in a Cybercab would be competing with thousands or millions of existing Model 3s, making it a less practical choice (11m31s).
• The basics of what Tesla has promised people for a long time, including full self-driving capabilities, still aren't available (11m50s).
• Tesla has lost its shine due to increased competition and Elon Musk-related reasons, resulting in people no longer giving the company the benefit of the doubt for its ideas (12m13s).
• The company's previous ability to generate excitement and trust in its products has faded, with people now being more skeptical about its announcements (12m32s).
• A prediction scoreboard was discussed, with one prediction being that a certain product would not arrive until 2027, which was deemed likely to be incorrect (12m58s).
• Another prediction stated that the product would only be available in certain cities, which is still uncertain but considered possible (13m10s).
• The discussion touched on the topic of inductive charging, with Tesla having previously developed a successful charging standard that is now being adopted by others (13m57s).
• However, Tesla is now exploring a new, unproven method of inductive charging, which is seen as unnecessary and potentially problematic (14m20s).
• The idea of inductive charging is to simplify the charging process, eliminating the need for moving parts and making it more efficient, but it is still in the experimental phase (14m53s).
• Elon Musk's vision for the future includes getting rid of parking lots and replacing them with parks, but this raises questions about the logistics of implementing such a system (15m18s).
• The concept of inductive charging pads for Robo taxis is compared to the idea of induced demand, where making highways wider leads to more people using them, and is seen as a potential issue for cities. (15m26s)
• The idea of putting a park near Soldier Field instead of a parking lot, but then needing to build a field of inductive charging pads for Cyber cabs, is seen as a tradeoff that may not be beneficial. (16m21s)
• Existing Teslas may not be able to turn into Robo taxis, but the outcome is uncertain due to unknown information about Hardware 3. (16m49s)
• A prediction that cars would be driven by Optimus robots is seen as a push, as it is unclear if this will happen, and it is noted that the Optimus robots were actually controlled by people during a demo. (17m27s)
• The demo of the Optimus robots was seen as successful in fooling some people, but it is noted that similar robots have existed for a decade, such as those developed by Honda and Boston Robotics. (17m44s)
• Boston Robotics is mentioned as a company that will sell a lethally armed robot dog, and is desperate for customers. (18m3s)
• The event featuring the Optimus robots is compared to Chuck E. Cheese's, and it is noted that the robots' abilities, such as holding conversations and performing gestures, are impressive but not necessarily indicative of a major breakthrough. (18m23s)
• Hyundai Motor Group purchased Boston Dynamics in 2021 for nearly $1 billion, giving Hyundai and Kia access to advanced robotics technology, including the Optimus robot, which is more advanced than Tesla's offerings (18m59s).
• The Optimus robot demo was not as impressive as it seemed, with many of its actions being human-assisted, and its capabilities are not as advanced as those of robots developed by Boston Dynamics (19m59s).
• Boston Dynamics' robots are highly advanced and can perform complex tasks, such as walking automatically and withstanding physical interactions, like being kicked (20m8s).
• The Optimus robot's AI capabilities are not as advanced as they seem, with some interactions being scripted or human-assisted, and its responses can be similar to those of a chatbot (20m28s).
• The prediction that existing Teslas would become taxis was partially correct, but not entirely, with some existing Teslas being used for this purpose, but not most of them (21m1s).
• The robo van concept shown by Tesla is unlikely to arrive as presented, with its design and functionality being unoriginal and having been seen before in various forms (22m0s).

Apple's New iPad Mini and Tech News (25m11s)

• Apple has announced a new iPad Mini with a new chip, which was done through a press release, and it is believed that the company just needed to make this announcement before the end of October (25m30s).
• The new iPad Mini has last year's chip, the A17 Pro, which was in iPhones last year, and it is not considered an impressive upgrade (25m52s).
• The device is a spec upgrade, with faster connections and processors, but it is not a redesign like the previous iPad Mini three years ago, which had a total redesign, squared-off edges, and Touch ID in the power button (26m47s).
• The fact that Apple upgraded the iPad Air to the M2 and the iPad Pro to the M4, but the iPad Mini only got the A17 Pro, suggests that Apple does not consider the iPad Mini a priority (26m55s).
• The A17 Pro chip is considered good enough for the iPad Mini, but it is not the latest technology, and it may make the device feel old sooner than other iPads released this year (28m13s).
• The new iPad Mini does have some new features, such as Pencil Pro support, but overall, it is not considered a significant upgrade (28m2s).
• The device is expected to be very good, but it is not considered as good as other iPads released this year, and it may not be as desirable due to its older technology (27m45s).
• The discussion revolves around the idea of a device that is a combination of a phone and an iPad, with the speaker mentioning that if Apple made an "iPhone Ultra Plus Max," people would buy it due to the popularity of large phones (29m9s).
• The iPad Mini is not suitable as a phone replacement because it does not run iPhone apps, despite its size being relatively close to the iPhone 16 Pro Max (30m11s).
• The main differences between the iPad Mini and the iPhone are the inability to run iPhone apps and the lack of pencil support on the iPhone (30m24s).
• Apple's own press picture of the iPad Mini shows it being held like a phone, suggesting that it could be used as one (30m31s).
• The formation of the x86 Advisory Group, consisting of tech companies like Microsoft, Google, and Intel, is seen as a response to the growing threat of ARM-based processors, with Apple being a notable example of a company that has successfully transitioned to ARM-based silicon (32m3s).
• The group's formation is interpreted as a sign of existential fear among the companies involved, particularly with regards to the competition from ARM-based processors (31m53s).
• Qualcomm's past promises of delivering efficient and powerful ARM-based performance have not been met, leading Intel and AMD to believe that they would not be able to catch up (32m22s).
• However, Apple's success with its ARM-based silicon has proven that it is possible to deliver high-performance devices using ARM-based processors, leaving Intel and AMD to play catch-up (32m10s).
• Qualcomm has made significant advancements in the chip industry, particularly with the Snapdragon Elite, and is now considered a competitor to x86, with many companies, including Intel and AMD, feeling threatened by its rapid progress (32m41s).
• The chip industry has undergone a significant shift, with companies like Apple, Nvidia, and Qualcomm making major moves, leaving other chip makers struggling to keep up (33m28s).
• The recent announcement by several major companies, including Broadcom, Dell, Google, and Microsoft, to work together on a new chip initiative is seen as a response to Nvidia's dominance in the AI market and a desire to create a competitor (35m37s).
• The initiative is primarily focused on the data center market, where x86 processors are still widely used, and companies like AMD and Intel are looking to create a stronger competitor to Nvidia's GPUs (33m45s).
• The partnership includes a wide range of companies, including Lenovo, Meta, Oracle, and Red Hat, all of which have significant data center businesses and are looking to create a more competitive chip market (35m47s).
• The rapid advancement of ARM chips has also played a role in the shift in the chip industry, with many companies adopting ARM-based chips for their products (34m38s).
• The partnership is seen as a way for companies to work together to create better chips, rather than competing against each other and duplicating efforts (35m14s).
• However, some believe that the partnership may be too little, too late, as Nvidia has already established a strong position in the AI market (35m33s).
• Many major companies, including Microsoft and Google, are building their own chips, which may impact the future of x86 chips and the tech industry as a whole (36m26s).
• The development of custom chips could give companies more control over their products and allow them to make specific demands from other companies, such as Qualcomm (36m35s).
• The shift towards custom chips may have been motivated by a desire to convince investors that companies are taking alternative chip architectures, like ARM, seriously (37m20s).
• Sonos has announced a new Arc Ultra soundbar and subwoofer, which features new transducers from a company called Mayht and is more powerful than the regular Arc (37m52s).
• The new soundbar uses a technology called "sound motion," which Sonos claims is a significant breakthrough in audio engineering that unlocks greater clarity, depth, and balance (38m54s).
• The Arc Ultra features seven tweeters, six midwoofers, and a built-in woofer, and is priced at $1,000 (39m6s).
• Sonos had previously paused new releases due to issues with their app, but has since released a plan to fix the problems and has made significant progress in addressing them (38m1s).
• The company's CEO, Eddie Lazarus, has given a media tour discussing the issues with the app and the steps taken to resolve them (38m20s).
• There is dissatisfaction with the sound quality of certain devices for music, as it is perceived that music and movies are two different things (40m17s).
• The sound quality has not been personally experienced yet, but there is excitement to hear it (40m20s).
• Chris Walch is also excited to review the device (40m23s).

New Sonos Arc Ultra and Sub 4 (40m26s)

• The new Sonos Arc Ultra and Sub 4 are capable of producing 9.1.4 sound, which is a significant achievement, especially considering the price point of $1,000, as a similar setup with separate speakers and a receiver would cost thousands of dollars (40m28s).
• The idea of soundbars is to provide a convenient and effort-free way to achieve high-quality sound, and the new Sonos products seem to be pushing the boundaries of what is possible with soundbars (40m56s).
• The 9.1.4 sound system is not just about the number of speakers, but also about the processing and technology that goes into creating an immersive sound experience (41m26s).
• Sonos CEO Patrick Spence mentioned that the company has reached a level of quality in their app that gives them the confidence to launch new products, and the new app has 90% of the previous app's features, with more updates on the way (41m59s).
• The biggest noticeable upgrade for those with a regular 5.1 system is the addition of front height speakers, which provide a more immersive sound experience (42m44s).
• The challenge with soundbars is to create the illusion of sound coming from above, as the speakers are necessarily reflecting from the middle, rather than coming from straight up (43m18s).
• The new Sonos products are expected to be a significant upgrade, and some people are eagerly waiting to review and experience the new sound system (42m40s).

The Analogue 3D (44m1s)

• The Analog 3D is a new device that has been in the making for about a year and is capable of playing Nintendo 64 cartridges, with a design that resembles a Nintendo 64 console, but also bears some resemblance to a Sega Genesis. (44m1s)
• The device has a controller, but with a modified design that does not include the middle grip found on the original Nintendo 64 controller, although it still has ports on the front for plugging in an original N64 controller. (44m50s)
• The Analog 3D has two USB ports and an SD card slot, allowing users to potentially add other content to the device, in addition to playing cartridges. (45m28s)
• The Nintendo 64 is notoriously difficult to emulate, but the manufacturer, Analog, seems confident that they have successfully emulated the console. (44m44s)
• Some people may still have a collection of N64 cartridges, and the device allows them to play these games again, with the option to also add other content via the SD card slot or USB ports. (45m37s)

The future of the Kindle with Panos Panay (46m22s)

• Amazon recently introduced four new Kindles, marking a full line reset, with the event being the first at Amazon for Panos Panay, who previously worked at Microsoft on Windows and Surface (46m23s).
• The new Kindles include the regular Kindle with spec improvements, a brighter screen, and a new matcha color, as well as the new Paperwhite with a bigger and brighter screen, faster processing, and a redesign (47m46s).
• The Paperwhite is considered the biggest and most important Kindle in the lineup, and its redesign was influenced by the "book talk" movement and the trend of customizing Kindles (48m8s).
• The Kindle Scribe allows users to take notes and features AI-powered tools to summarize and format notes, as well as improve handwriting (48m27s).
• The Kindle Colorsoft is the first color Kindle, featuring a paper-white display with color capabilities, achieved through innovative display stack work, although it is very expensive (48m48s).
• The introduction of the Kindle Colorsoft is seen as a significant moment for the Kindle brand, with its color display making a notable difference in the reading experience (49m4s).
• The new Paperwhite has been tested and found to be very fast, with its speed being a notable improvement (49m22s).
• Panos Panay has joined the Vergecast to discuss the future of the Kindle and his recent move from Microsoft to Amazon, where he is now working on various products including the Kindle (49m42s).
• Panay has launched several thousand new Kindles, the most in history, and this is part of a larger discussion about the future of the product (50m13s).
• Panay was previously at Microsoft for a long time, where he worked on the Surface products, and his move to Amazon was a surprise to many people (50m36s).
• Panay explains that he moved to Amazon because of the company's values and the opportunity to work on a wide range of products that can impact people's lives, including the Kindle, Ring, Blink, Fire TV, Fire tablets, Alexa, Echo, and satellites (51m10s).
• Panay believes that there is an underlying AI bet underneath all of Amazon's products, and that this technology has the potential to change people's lives (51m52s).
• Panay thinks that the shift to AI is real and that it will have a significant impact on the consumer space, allowing companies to do things that were previously impossible (52m19s).
• Panay mentions that he is excited to work on the Kindle and other products at Amazon, and that he believes the company has the potential to make a significant impact on people's lives (52m42s).
• Panay is asked about the connection between the Kindle and Amazon's satellites, and he explains that the goal is not to stretch and pull everything together, but rather to think about how each product can impact people's lives in a meaningful way (53m9s).
• The impact of getting broadband to everyone and the distribution of broadband to the world through satellites can have a massive and positive impact on people's lives, similar to how reading and learning can be life-changing. (53m21s)
• The Kindle has been game-changing for people's lives, allowing them to read, learn, and create, and its impact is still being felt. (53m35s)
• Alexa can be a key factor in connecting various products and services, and there is an opportunity for Alexa to become a smarter AI product. (53m59s)
• Work is being done to make Alexa a smarter AI product, but details are not being shared at this time. (54m11s)
• The transition from one big company's ecosystem to another can be challenging, but the opportunities and challenges are different in each case. (55m10s)
• The amount of consumers connected around the world through technology, particularly with the shift towards AI, presents a significant opportunity for Amazon and Alexa to make a transformative impact. (55m25s)
• The leadership principles at Amazon are aligned with the way Panos Panay likes to run teams, focusing on connecting people and prioritizing the customer. (56m3s)
• There is a desire to discuss leadership principles in more detail, but it is being saved for another time in favor of discussing gadgets. (56m15s)
• Amazon recently launched four new Kindles at once, which is believed to be a deliberate move rather than an accident, given the brand's significance and the team's dedication to the product (56m31s).
• The Kindle brand has transcended other products and is closely associated with e-readers and reading, with a powerful connection to its users (56m58s).
• The team working on Kindle is obsessed with detail and has been working on new products, including one with color, which was a key consideration to ensure the experience was not compromised (57m31s).
• The decision to launch new Kindles was made about a year ago, with the goal of refreshing the product line and bringing new features, such as color and improved ink, to the devices (57m52s).
• The Kindle brand is growing, with 60% of last year's buyers being first-time Kindle owners, indicating a new generation of readers and an upward trend in reading (58m12s).
• The trend is driven in part by Gen Z and Millennials, who are discovering the joy of reading and personalizing their Kindles, as seen on social media platforms like TikTok (58m41s).
• The Kindle team is passionate about creating products that are personal and meaningful to users, and the recent launch is seen as a significant moment for the brand (59m0s).
• The Kindle's success can be seen as both a giant achievement and a slow-moving product line, with some perceiving it as a victory that was achieved 10 years ago with the launch of the Paperwhite (59m34s).
• The Kindle has been a huge success in its category, but there are other companies doing interesting things with e-ink and building new devices, such as importing e-ink devices from China to run Android on them (59m56s).
• The Kindle has won in its category, but the question is how to move it forward, and it's a complicated question, especially with the new job of writing added to its original purpose of reading (1h0m27s).
• The Kindle's new job is focused on reading and writing, which are innate human behaviors, and the goal is to stay focused, distraction-free, and create while reading and writing (1h0m50s).
• The Kindle brand is not near its peak, and it's a humble brand that means a lot to people and has made a difference in their lives (1h1m10s).
• People love their Kindles, but they may not see a need to upgrade to a new one, which is a challenge for the company (1h1m36s).
• The success of the Kindle is measured by the fact that people are reading, which is a win, but the company wants to continue to innovate and improve the device (1h1m52s).
• The addition of color to the Kindle changes the emotion and could lead to a different conversation about the device (1h2m11s).
• The question is whether the Kindle has a lot of competition and an ecosystem of devices using e-ink screens to drive the technology forward (1h2m35s).
• The underlying ecosystem competition is seen as a great thing, but the Kindle is currently the main product in its category (1h2m56s).

Lightning Round (unsponsored) (1h24m52s)

• Google has been making significant changes to the way the company works, partly to integrate AI into everything and partly due to the company's evolution, leading to changes in leadership roles and personnel (1h26m5s).
• Prabhakar Raghavan, the person responsible for running search ads and a crucial figure in Google's revenue generation, is stepping down from his role and becoming Google's Chief Technologist, a title that may not hold significant responsibilities (1h26m37s).
• Nick Fox, who has been at Google for a long time and is considered one of Sundar Pichai's "fixers," is taking over Raghavan's role, having previously successfully led the messaging team and solved the impossible problem of making RCS work (1h27m44s).
• Google's search team is under immense pressure from regulators and OpenAI, making Raghavan's departure and Fox's takeover significant developments (1h27m33s).
• The changes in Google's leadership roles may be a result of the company's evolution and the need for fresh perspectives, with some long-time employees possibly feeling tapped out or not wanting to continue in their current roles (1h26m27s).
• Google has made significant changes, including the appointment of a new Chief Technologist, who has been involved in various ambitious projects, indicating a potential shift in the company's approach to search (1h28m30s).
• The Gemini division is now under DeepMind, led by Demis Hassabis, who has been consolidating AI power within Google, and has recently won a Nobel Prize for his work on protein structures (1h29m0s).
• Google Assistant is being moved to the Platforms and Devices division, suggesting that it may become a feature of Android rather than a standalone AI product (1h29m29s).
• The reorganization of Google's AI efforts is similar to Microsoft's structure, which has a CTO and a CEO of AI, Mustafa Suleyman, indicating a trend towards complex organizational charts in tech companies (1h31m6s).
• The consolidation of AI power under a single leader, such as Demis Hassabis at Google, raises questions about the role of AI in the company's future and how it will be integrated into various products and services (1h29m10s).
• The appointment of a new Chief Technologist and the reorganization of AI efforts at Google and Microsoft reflect the growing importance of AI in the tech industry and the challenges of integrating it into existing company structures (1h30m25s).
• Google is facing regulatory threats, which may lead to a prolonged period of uncertainty, causing some people to choose to leave the company instead of waiting for the issues to be resolved (1h32m0s).
• The company has been involved in consolidation efforts, such as with Android, and is currently dealing with the Epic case, which may lead to the opening up of Android to other shores (1h32m39s).
• The conversation shifts to the topic of Donald Trump, who is talking about tech policy and has a meaningful chance of winning the election (1h33m5s).
• Trump's tech policy during his first administration was unpredictable, and there is concern about what his policies might be if he wins again (1h33m12s).
• Trump has expressed hatred towards tech companies and has made claims that they interfered with the election, specifically mentioning the Hunter Biden laptop story (1h33m34s).
• Trump's views on tech companies are seen as nonsensical, and his line of attack is not based on facts (1h34m11s).
• Trump was interviewed by John Micklethwait, the editor-in-chief of Bloomberg News, at the Economic Club of Chicago, where he expressed his desire to regulate speech and break up Google (1h34m55s).
• Trump stated that Google has a lot of power and is "very bad" to him, claiming that the company only publishes negative stories about him (1h35m14s).
• Trump also mentioned that he called the head of Google to express his concerns, but the details of the conversation are not specified (1h35m25s).
• A conversation is discussed where someone expresses concerns about Google's search results, suggesting that the platform is "rigged" and only shows negative stories about a particular individual, in this case, Donald Trump (1h35m30s).
• The person in the conversation believes that Google should be more neutral, but acknowledges that the company's actions are protected by the First Amendment (1h36m13s).
• The conversation then shifts to China, with the person expressing admiration for the country's power and influence, but also acknowledging the potential dangers of its growing power (1h36m36s).
• The person notes that China is afraid of Google, but it's unclear what specific aspect of Google they are referring to, such as its AI capabilities or its search engine (1h36m56s).
• The conversation also touches on the topic of TikTok, with the person expressing concerns about the app's potential threat to national security, but also acknowledging that banning it may not be the best solution (1h37m25s).
• The person suggests that instead of banning companies like Google or TikTok, the focus should be on making them more fair and transparent, but acknowledges that this is a difficult task (1h37m59s).
• The conversation concludes with the person expressing frustration with the media, which they believe is "fake" and "corrupt," and suggesting that the government should play a role in regulating the press (1h38m10s).
• Donald Trump claimed that Tim Cook called him to complain about EU regulations, stating that the European Union had fined Apple $15 billion, in addition to a previous $2 billion fine for restricting music apps. (1h39m35s)
• Trump also mentioned that Cook said the EU is using the fines to "run their Enterprise," and Trump responded by saying he wouldn't let the EU take advantage of US companies if he gets elected. (1h40m5s)
• The EU had previously fined Apple $2 billion in March for restricting music apps, and also ordered the company to pay $14.4 billion in unpaid taxes. (1h39m46s)
• It is unclear how a US politician can negotiate tax rates in other countries, and it is unlikely that Germany or any other country would be allowed to dictate US tax policies. (1h40m38s)
• Trump's claim that he called the head of Google and said "outlandish nonsense" has not been confirmed, and Google did not comment on the matter. (1h41m11s)
• Apple did not respond to requests for comment on Trump's claim that Tim Cook called him to complain about EU regulations. (1h41m37s)
• The lack of response from Apple is unusual, as the company typically responds to requests for comment from the press. (1h42m3s)
• Some tech CEOs may be "hedging their bets" in case Trump wins the presidency by maintaining a good relationship with him. (1h42m25s)