Derek Sivers and Kevin Kelly — The Tim Ferriss Show
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- Derek Sivers and Kevin Kelly were interviewed on The Tim Ferriss Show podcast.
- AG1 is a comprehensive nutritional supplement containing 75 science-driven ingredients, including vitamins, probiotics, and whole-food sourced nutrients. It is NSF certified for sport and free of harmful levels of microbes, heavy metals, and 280 banned substances.
- Helix Sleep is a premium mattress brand that offers tailored mattresses based on sleep preferences, a 100-night risk-free trial, and a 10 or 15-year warranty. Their newest collection, Helix Elite, includes six different mattress models for specific sleep positions and firmness preferences.
- Tim Ferriss introduces the episode with a special offer from Helix mattresses and asks Kevin Kelly a personal question about what he would do if he were a cybernetic organism.
Notes about this supercombo format.
- Tim Ferriss' podcast recently celebrated its 10th anniversary and surpassed 1 billion downloads.
- This episode is a compilation of some of the best moments from over 700 episodes.
- The goal is to introduce listeners to both well-known and lesser-known individuals who have had a significant impact on Tim Ferriss' life.
- The pairings have been carefully curated, and bios of all guests can be found at tim.blog/combo.
Enter Derek Sivers.
- Derek Sivers is a former musician, programmer, TED speaker, circus clown, and author.
- He sold his first company, CD Baby, for $22 million and donated all the money to charity.
- Derek Sivers has written books on philosophy and entrepreneurship, including "How to Live Hell Yeah or No: Anything You Want and Useful Not True".
- You can find him on Twitter @sivers.
From pig show busker to circus ringleader.
- Derek Sivers's goal was to be a professional musician.
- He took a $75 gig to play at a pig show in Vermont.
- He impressed the booking agent and was offered more gigs.
- He eventually became the ring leader MC of the circus and performed over a thousand shows in 10 years.
- The circus experience gave him stage experience and led to other opportunities.
- Derek Sivers learned to say yes to every opportunity, especially early in his career.
- He believes that saying yes to small gigs can lead to bigger opportunities.
- He also learned the importance of stage experience and how it helped him in his career.
Derek’s framework for developing confidence.
- Derek initially felt self-conscious on stage, thinking the audience was judging him.
- Tarlton, a circus team member, pushed him to be over the top and give the audience what they came for.
- Derek realized that performing is not about him but about giving the audience what they want.
- This lesson applies to all forms of communication, including interviews and conversations.
- Technology is advancing rapidly, and we are at the beginning of a new era.
- The future will be shaped by three key trends:
- Ubiquitous computing: Technology will become increasingly embedded in our environment, making it invisible and seamless.
- Artificial intelligence: AI will become more powerful and capable, transforming industries and society.
- Synthetic biology: This field will allow us to engineer living organisms, leading to new medical treatments and materials.
- These trends will converge and create a world that is more interconnected, intelligent, and alive.
“The standard pace is for chumps.”
- Derek Sivers attributes his success to the influence of two key individuals: a music teacher named Kemo Williams and a coach or mentor.
- Kemo Williams, a music teacher, played a pivotal role in Sivers' life by imparting valuable lessons that enabled him to graduate from Berkeley College of Music in half the usual time.
- Williams emphasized that the standard pace of education caters to the lowest common denominator and encouraged Sivers to progress at his own accelerated pace.
- Through challenging questions and personalized guidance, Williams helped Sivers develop his musical skills and knowledge, including music theory and techniques.
- Sivers also received intensive music theory lessons from another teacher, who provided him with a substantial amount of homework over four 2-hour sessions.
- This intensive learning allowed Sivers to bypass the first few years of the Berkeley College of Music curriculum.
- The teacher suggested a strategy to bypass required courses by purchasing the books, completing the homework, and taking the final exams.
- By applying this strategy, Sivers was able to graduate from Berkeley College of Music in just two years.
Relaxing for the same result.
- Derek Sivers used to be a highly driven individual, always striving for excellence and pushing himself to the limit.
- He engaged in intense cycling sessions, completing a specific bike path in 43 minutes, but this routine became associated with negative feelings and perceived as solely painful and challenging.
- Sivers adopted a different approach, cycling at a slower pace while enjoying the scenery, and surprisingly, it still took him only 45 minutes to complete the same path.
- This revelation taught him that intense effort isn't always necessary and that relaxation can lead to similar results.
- The speaker reflects on the stress and sacrifices made for marginal gains, questioning their impact on well-being.
- They advocate for a more balanced approach, seeking effectiveness and happiness without excessive stress and optimization.
- Sivers' current strategy involves applying lessons effectively without pushing himself to the point of stress.
The origins of “HELL YEAH! or no.”
- Derek Sivers was invited to a music conference in Australia but was hesitant to go.
- His friend, Amber Rubarth, suggested that he make decisions based on whether he feels "hell yeah" or "no" about them.
- Sivers realized that he was saying yes to too many things and not giving enough attention to the things he was truly passionate about.
“Busy” implies a life out of control.
- Sivers believes that being "busy" often implies a lack of control over one's time and priorities.
- He says that he is not busy because he is in control of his time and says no to most things.
- Sivers applies the "hell yeah or no" approach to all aspects of his life, including personal relationships, events, and phone calls.
- He says that this approach has allowed him to have more time for the things he is truly passionate about.
What inspired the automation of CD Baby?
- To escape the overwhelming responsibilities of running CD Baby, Derek Sivers considered abandoning the company and moving to Hawaii.
- Instead of running away from his problems, Sivers chose to confront them by implementing a system of delegating tasks and responsibilities to his employees.
- He taught his employees the "why" behind every decision and process, ensuring multiple employees understood and documented these philosophies to create a self-sustaining system.
- After six months of hard work, Sivers successfully made himself unnecessary to the day-to-day operations of CD Baby, reducing the time spent on unwanted tasks to a few minutes a week.
- From 7:00 a.m. to midnight, he focused on programming the future of CD Baby, which he loved doing.
Derek’s billboard.
- Derek would remove all billboards in the world if he could.
- He admires places like Vermont and Sao Paulo, Brazil that ban billboards.
- His better answer is that he would make a billboard that says "it won't make you happy" and place it outside shopping malls or car dealerships.
- He thinks it would be fun to train parrots to say "it won't make you happy" and let them loose in shopping malls and superstores.
Good advice at any age: “Don’t be a donkey.”
- Derek Sivers and Kevin Kelly discussed the importance of focusing on one pursuit at a time rather than trying to do too many things simultaneously on The Tim Ferriss Show.
- They suggested viewing pursuits as experiments with a specific time frame, such as two years or six episodes, and tweaking the approach by making them serial rather than parallel.
- Wealthfront, an app that helps users save and invest their money, is sponsoring the episode.
- Wealthfront offers a 5% annual percentage yield (APY) on its cash account, which is more than 10 times more interest than the average savings account.
- Users can also get an extra $50 bonus when they open an account and deposit $500 or more.
Enter Kevin Kelly.
- Kevin Kelly is the executive editor of Wired Magazine, former editor and publisher of the Whole Earth Review, and a best-selling author.
- He is known for his books on technology and culture, including "The Inevitable: What Technology Wants" and "Vanishing Asia".
- Kevin Kelly can be found on Twitter and Instagram as "kevinkellynyc" and on his website "kk.org".
Kevin’s biggest regret.
- When asked how he answers the question "what do you do?", Kevin Kelly says he packages ideas into books, magazines, and websites, and makes them interesting and pretty.
- He emphasizes the importance of aesthetics, which he believes is a neglected aspect of communication.
- Kevin Kelly dropped out of college after one year and considers it his biggest regret.
- He traveled around Asia instead, photographing remote areas during a time of transition from the ancient to the modern world.
- He considers this period a formative time in his life and highly recommends such experiences.
- At the age of 35, Kevin Kelly got his first real job at the Whole Earth Catalog, which had been a lifelong dream of his.
- Before that, he started and sold businesses, and had various adventures.
Finding contentment in minimalism and “voluntary simplicity” without starving to death.
- Kevin Kelly advises young people to prioritize "Extreme Performance" and "Extreme Satisfaction" over traditional productivity measures after college.
- He encourages exploration, experimentation, and avoiding premature optimization to foster creativity.
- Kelly emphasizes the importance of developing ultra-thriftiness and minimalism, sharing his experience of backpacking through Asia with limited resources.
- Young people should embrace minimalism to gain confidence, reduce financial anxiety, and pursue their passions.
- Kelly supported himself during his travels with various odd jobs, including warehouse work and driving.
- Derek Sivers' experience as an English teacher in Iran highlights the concept of differential pricing.
- Stoic philosophy, as practiced by Seneca and Marcus Aurelius, promotes voluntary poverty to recognize one's ability to subsist with minimal resources.
- Volunteer simplicity, a modern version of voluntary poverty, can be a powerful tool for personal growth.
- Backpacking and similar experiences help individuals understand their essential needs for a fulfilling life.
Kevin’s epiphany when he embraced writing as a late bloomer.
- Kevin Kelly honed his writing skills through real-life experiences, traveling, and immersing himself in different cultures.
- Writing letters home while traveling and joining an early online community in the 1980s further enhanced his communication abilities.
- Kelly discovered that writing helps him define and develop his ideas, as the act of putting thoughts into words clarifies his understanding.
- The immediate feedback loop and lack of expectations in online communication fostered direct and concrete expression.
- Writing can generate new ideas and serve as an idea generation machine.
- Seek passionate individuals when looking for good writers, as passion drives the writing process.
- Find exciting subjects and experiences, stay true to your voice, and write as if composing an email to a friend after a couple of glasses of wine to avoid sounding pompous or slapstick.
Why Kevin promised himself he would never resort to teaching English while traveling abroad.
- Kevin didn't feel like he was a very good teacher.
- He thought teaching English was a bit too easy and didn't feel like he was adding value.
- He didn't enjoy the idea of teaching English and didn't think he would be happy doing it.
- He believes in focusing on things that only he can do and that he's good at.
Finding purpose through resilience and the creator’s dilemma.
- Kevin Kelly believes that finding one's unique skill set is a lifelong process and that life itself is about figuring it out.
- Even highly successful people question their role and purpose, and success can make it harder to find one's unique skill set due to the "creator's dilemma" or "innovator's dilemma."
- Investing in strengths yields higher returns, but in a rapidly changing landscape, it can lead to getting stuck in local optima.
- To reach higher levels of success, one must venture into uncharted territories with low margins, low profits, and high failure rates, which startups are forced to do due to their lack of options.
- Successful companies and individuals often rely on money to solve problems, but innovation cannot be solely purchased.
- Startups have an advantage in finding innovations due to their lack of resources, while successful companies are disadvantaged by their reliance on money.
- Beginners or novices have an advantage over experts in adapting to change due to their lower vested identity and inertia.
Why the appeal of being a billionaire is overrated.
- Accumulating wealth is a byproduct of other things and not a goal in itself.
- Extreme wealth does not bring significantly different experiences or lifestyles.
- Money beyond survival needs is less significant in an abundant world.
- There are deeper and more constant routes to contentment and meaning than money.
- Travel experiences gained with little money can be more valuable than those bought with a billion dollars.
- Many people mistakenly believe that wealth is necessary for certain experiences, when in reality, they can be achieved with less money or alternative means.
Middle-aged optimization.
- The speaker expresses feeling tired of optimizing and the incremental improvements that come with it.
- They mention the pressure to focus on a few core areas for income optimization.
- They contrast this with a desire for creative destruction and new experiences.
- The speaker commends the honesty of those who express this feeling.
- They suggest experimenting incrementally and evaluating the results to find a fulfilling direction.
- They believe it's possible to reinvent oneself without drastic measures like giving up citizenship.
- They emphasize the importance of looking at areas that bring satisfaction, often related to childhood interests.
- They caution against impatience and unrealistic expectations of quick transformation.
Realizations following a “six months until death” challenge.
- Tim Ferriss reflects on the impact of considering his own mortality and the constraint of knowing he had only six months to live.
- He questions how he would maximize his impact on the greatest number of people within that timeframe.
- Derek Sivers clarifies that not everything on Wikipedia is accurate, but confirms that he had an assignment in Jerusalem to live as if he had only six months to live, despite being perfectly healthy.
- Initially, he thought he would engage in high-risk activities, but instead, he chose to visit his family and help his mother, who was unwell at the time.
- After three months, he decided to embark on a cross-country bicycle journey from San Francisco to New York, keeping a journal of his experiences.
- Derek Sivers suggests that having a billion dollars may not be necessary to accomplish what one wants to do in six months.
- He emphasizes the importance of repeatedly asking oneself what they would do if they had six months to live and trying to answer it regularly.
- Derek Sivers mentions his friend Stuart Brand, who organized his remaining days around five-year increments.
- Brand believed that significant ideas typically last about five years from conception to the end of active engagement with them.
- This perspective encourages individuals to think in terms of achievable projects within a limited timeframe.
- Derek Sivers highlights the importance of considering mortality, even for younger individuals, as time is finite and precious.
- He suggests thinking in terms of what one would do if they had a year to live and how that intersects with having a billion dollars.
- The discussion leaves open the question of whether religion plays a significant role in these considerations.
Kevin’s Kickstarter-funded project linking angels and robots.
- Kevin Kelly wrote a book called "What Technology Wants" which explores technology in the context of the cosmos.
- He is currently working on a Kickstarter-funded graphic novel about angels and robots.
- The graphic novel explores the idea that robots may one day have souls given to them by angels.
- Kelly believes that robots will need to be trained to be ethical, as simply creating free beings without moral guidance could lead to chaos.
- The graphic novel serves as a way to explore the potential consequences of technology and to ask questions about the direction of evolution and the role of technology in the universe.
- Kelly believes that having an "other view" or a different perspective can be helpful in understanding other worldviews.
- Everyone has a worldview, even if they are not consciously aware of it, and it is important to question assumptions, including one's own.
Why a self-proclaimed ex-hippie waited until his 50th birthday to try LSD for the first time.
- Derek Sivers shares his personal experience with LSD as a profound sacrament, emphasizing its potential for elevating consciousness and connecting with something beyond the ego.
- He highlights the importance of context, expectations, and setting when using drugs for spiritual experiences, as these factors can greatly influence the outcome.
- Sivers suggests that the current shift in drug laws, particularly the potential legalization of marijuana, presents an opportunity to revitalize traditional practices and responsible use of substances for transformative experiences.
- Objective, factual, and unbiased information about drugs is scarce, while politicized, inaccurate, or fear-mongering information is prevalent and easily accessible.
Why a population implosion is probable in the next 100 years.
- Kevin Kelly argues that having a future to look forward to is essential for being fully human.
- Accurate predictions about the future are often disregarded, while plausible forecasts tend to be incorrect.
- To avoid making assumptions based on extrapolation, it's beneficial to consider alternative scenarios, such as the possibility of technology becoming more expensive instead of cheaper.
- Kelly predicts a significant decrease in the global population within the next 100 years, leading to a vastly different world.
- Fertility rates in developed countries, excluding the US, are below the replacement level, resulting in population decline.
- The US is an exception due to immigration, but without it, the US would also experience population decline.
- Developing countries are also experiencing declining fertility rates as they urbanize.
- Government efforts to increase fertility rates have been ineffective.
- For a population to sustain itself, the average woman needs to have 2.1 children, but many women in modern society have fewer children.
- Population projections indicate an ongoing decline in population due to low fertility rates.
The greatest gift you can give to your child.
- Privileged people should have children to bestow privileges and opportunities.
- Having more than one child is a gift to the children.
- Siblings provide a unique bond and teachings to each other.
- After three children, the amount of energy required from parents doesn't significantly increase.
- Older children can help parent younger children, effectively increasing the number of parents.
- This approach is traditional, with families in the past having many children but fewer surviving.
The criteria for Amish technology assimilation.
- The Amish have a unique approach to technology adoption, carefully considering whether new technologies strengthen families and communities before accepting them.
- They use pneumatic technology, such as "am electricity," to power various machines and are skilled hackers.
- The Amish prioritize having every meal with their children and prefer businesses to be located within their community to strengthen local communities and keep families together.
- They have a decentralized decision-making process, with early adopters trying out new technologies under observation. If the technology is deemed harmful, they are ready to give it up.
- The Amish diaspora is expanding, with communities in Ohio, Iowa, and New York, in addition to Pennsylvania, which is considered the heart of Amish country.
What technology-free sabbaticals can do for you.
- Taking technology-free sabbaticals or sabbaths can be beneficial, especially for families with young children.
- It's not about technology being toxic, but rather about stepping back to gain a renewed perspective and appreciation.
- Rhythmic disconnection through sabbaths, yearly vacations, and sabbaticals every seven years can be powerful.
- Derek Sivers takes Saturdays off as his screenless day and finds it galvanizing.
- His wife's company, Genentech, offers a six-week sabbatical for researchers, which is rare in the US.
- Derek Sivers and his family plan to spend one month camping in national parks and two weeks in Asia during their sabbatical.
- Derek Sivers' longest period without checking email was two weeks while in China.
- China's blocking of Google and remote locations made it challenging to access email.
- Derek Sivers prefers not to use his iPhone as an input device and leaves everything behind when he travels.
- He goes days without checking email, even in the US, and up to three or four days when overseas.
Long Now Foundation’s vision of a better civilization.
- The Long Now Foundation was established in 1996 to creatively foster long-term thinking and responsibility in the framework of the next 10,000 years.
- The foundation's initiatives include:
- The 10,000-year clock: A monument-scale multi-millennial all-mechanical clock as an icon to long-term thinking.
- The ROsetta project: Building an archive of all documented human languages.
- Long bets: A public arena for enjoyable competitive predictions of interest to society with philanthropic money at stake.
- Revive and restore: Bringing extinct species back to life.
- The foundation aims to counteract the short-term bias prevalent in society, particularly in the tech industry, and encourage individuals and society to think about things at a generational or civilizational scale.
- It promotes the idea of working on projects that may take longer than a lifetime to accomplish, similar to the cathedrals of old.
- The foundation does not advocate for a master plan for the future but rather encourages people to consider the long term in their thinking and actions.
- It emphasizes the value of pure science research and long-term investments, recognizing that the benefits may not be immediately apparent but can pay off in the future.
- The foundation believes that cultivating a society that allows for long-term thinking and investment would lead to a better civilization.
The graphic novel teaching young people how to become indispensable.
- Daniel Pink's graphic novel, "Adventures of Johnny Bunco," provides career advice for young people.
- It teaches them how to become indispensable in the workplace.
- The book is easy to read, non-threatening, and fun.
- It provides five great principles for starting out in the working world.
An antidote to misguided “follow your passion” advice.
- Cal Newport's book, "So Good They Can't Ignore You," challenges the conventional wisdom of "follow your passion."
- Newport argues that it is better to master something first and then use that mastery to find your passion.
- This is especially helpful for people who don't know what they're passionate about or what they're good at.
- Mastery can lead to passion, rather than the other way around.
Kevin’s favorite fiction book.
- Kevin's favorite fiction book is "Shantaram" by Gregory David Roberts.
- The book is set in the slums of India and provides a vivid and immersive view of India and the underworld in India and Asia.
- The main protagonist is a Zen criminal who does bad things but is sorry about them and has a cosmic perspective.
- The book is long, and Kevin recommends listening to the audiobook version.
- The author of the book, Gregory David Roberts, became a bank robber in New Zealand, escaped from prison, and made his way to the slums of India.
- Roberts got involved in drugs and the mafia in India and was put in prison, where he started writing the book.
- Roberts was recruited by an Afghan guru and fought in the mujahideen, where his entire company was wiped out.
- Kevin did not mention his favorite documentaries in the provided text.
The resource Kevin compiled for documentary lovers.
- Kevin has a website called True Films where he reviews the best documentaries.
- He also has a book called True Films which lists the 200 best documentaries that one should watch.
- Some of the documentaries Kevin recommends are:
- Man on Wire: A documentary about a man who walked between the Twin Towers.
- King of Kong: A documentary about a man who becomes the video game arcade game king of Kong and faces challenges from others trying to subvert him.
- State of Mind: A documentary about the spectacles in North Korea and the nationwide cult-like atmosphere.
A name Kevin considers synonymous with “success” (and why success is overrated).
- Kevin considers Jesus synonymous with success because of his significant impact on many people's lives.
- Success is often associated with money, fame, and other external trappings, but Kevin believes true success lies in being authentic and making a unique impact.
- Jesus didn't imitate anyone and created his own path, which is a mark of true success.
- Success should not be confined to categories or labels, and it's best when one creates their own path and becomes an adjective rather than being confined to a category.
What Kevin would change about himself.
- Kevin wishes he could sing and carry a tune.
- He has trouble remembering and staying in tune when singing.
- He appreciates music but doesn't play an instrument.
- He's interested in exploring hand drumming with gems and different types of drums.
- He's curious about the anti-epilepsy drug valproate and its potential to achieve perfect pitch in mature adults.
- He took a steel drum course at an adult summer camp and enjoyed it.
- He finds percussion primal and satisfying.
Daily rituals.
- Kevin wakes up at 7:30 AM.
- He reads the paper version of The New York Times as a morning ritual.
- He doesn't drink coffee or have a specific breakfast routine.
- He reads the slower, non-news sections of the newspaper.
How Kevin accumulated enough books to fill a two-story library.
- Derek Sivers and Kevin Kelly discuss their daily routines and habits, emphasizing the importance of consistency.
- Sivers engages in various activities throughout the day, including reading, hiking, and photography, while Kelly highlights the paradox of choice when selecting books and music.
- Sivers predicts that Amazon will offer free digital books but charge for recommendations, and shares his approach to buying both physical and digital books.
- Kelly stresses the value of physical books and maintaining a personal library, while Sivers explains his process of discovering and selecting books, including mediocre ones, for his "Cool Tools" catalog.
- Sivers' extensive reading, particularly in non-fiction and how-to genres, helps him identify the best books.
- Derek Sivers has a unique approach to learning and gaining knowledge through a wide range of hobbies and activities, such as building stone walls, origami, brewing beer, and homeschooling his son.
- His diverse experiences allow him to evaluate the usefulness of information presented in instructional books without needing to be an expert in every subject.
How Adam Savage from MythBusters transformed Kevin’s method of organization.
- Kevin built a workshop with bins organized in a way that allows for easy access to all items, inspired by Adam Savage's "first order access" principle.
- This organization method has greatly improved his efficiency and productivity.
- Kevin compares it to having a "manual Random Access Memory" for his tools, similar to how a chef has their ingredients and tools readily available while cooking.
The project everyone should undertake at least once in life.
- Building your own house can be an empowering experience that teaches you about yourself and your capabilities, and a well-designed house can reflect your personality and needs, contributing to your success.
- Discovering and inventing are the same process, essential for personal growth.
- Hiring professionals can save time and allow you to focus on your strengths.
- Podcasts are a great medium for teaching and learning, and listening to a variety of podcasts exposes you to different ideas.
- Asia is rapidly changing and offers a glimpse into the future.
- Tim Ferriss's newsletter, "5-Bullet Friday," and Derek Sivers's newsletter, "Five Bullet Friday," provide interesting and informative content.
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