Marc Benioff, Salesforce Founder: Why Salesforce Isn't Hiring Software Engineers | E1236

Intro (0s)

• Salesforce is currently working on its business plan for 2025 and has decided not to add more software engineers next year due to increased productivity with AI technology, specifically Agent Force, which has resulted in a 30% increase in engineering velocity (7s).
• The company will also have fewer support engineers next year due to the implementation of an agentic layer and the rapid commodification of large language models (20s).
• The conversation is an interview between the host and Marc Benioff, the founder of Salesforce, who is excited to be on the show for the second time (45s).
• Marc Benioff mentions that he has his two dogs with him during the interview and hopes they won't start barking (1m0s).
• The host mentions that he has interviewed many VCs and that Marc Benioff's thoughts on the matter make more sense than what they say (1m9s).
• Marc Benioff is asked about his thoughts on the changing importance of a CEO, but the conversation is interrupted by a lighthearted exchange about Marc Benioff's interest in podcasts and the host being his first (1m28s).
• Marc Benioff jokingly mentions that the host will always be his first, and the host expresses pride in being his first interview (1m33s).

The Importance of a CEO’s Personal Brand (1m43s)

• A CEO's personal brand is crucial in today's world, and listening to podcasts is one way to understand its importance (1m46s).
• Despite enjoying podcasts, there's a realization that learning how to effectively participate in one is necessary, including knowing how to capture people's attention and say the right things (2m6s).
• Many friends who are good at podcasting are scripted and well-prepared, which can make a significant difference in their performance (2m32s).
• The key to a successful podcast is a combination of art and science, where the art involves telling a story and making the audience feel like they're part of the journey (2m55s).
• The science aspect of podcasting involves understanding the importance of resonance with the consumer and learning, and combining these two elements can create a magical experience (3m5s).
• The goal is to bring the audience into the early moments of a company's journey, such as the "Salesforce magic," and make them feel like they're a part of it (3m1s).

Embracing Pain & Suffering (3m22s)

• A tweet was posted referencing a conversation between Jensen and Patrick Collison, where Jensen stated that nothing great is achieved without pain and suffering, and the author wished upon the recipient "plenty of pain and suffering" (3m26s).
• The phrase "no mud, no Lotus" originated from one of the author's teachers and good friends, Tikn Han, who brought mindfulness to the West and taught the author how to meditate (3m50s).
• Tikn Han's phrase "no mud, no Lotus" means that one must go through difficulty and suffering to achieve beauty and love, which is an important part of the author's life and mindset (4m28s).
• The author practices mindfulness and meditation daily to clear their mind and focus on their breath amidst difficult situations (4m42s).
• A recent example of pain and suffering leading to great outcomes was Salesforce's journey over the past two years, where the company faced a difficult moment with unusual resignations and financial issues (5m56s).
• In response, the company made significant changes, including rewriting their product, creating new products, and rebuilding their financial model, which ultimately resulted in a financial transformation and the introduction of a new AI product (6m22s).
• The company's stock has tripled over the past two years, and they have achieved a level of customer success never seen before, exemplifying the concept of "no mud, no Lotus" (7m5s).

Can Salesforce Thrive in the AI Era with Agent Force? (7m14s)

• Salesforce is the number one Enterprise AI supplier in the world, delivering AI at scale to more companies globally than any other company, with over two trillion Enterprise transactions this week (7m42s).
• The company has developed the first scaled, secure, and trusted Enterprise agentic platform, called Agent Force, which is being used by companies like Heathrow Airport to deploy agents and improve customer experience (8m3s).
• Heathrow Airport is using Agent Force to build an agentic layer around the airport, providing customers with a seamless experience from the beginning to the end of their journey (8m32s).
• The next version of Agent Force, Agent Force 20, is set to be announced on December 17th and will feature new capabilities, including the automation of every customer touch point (9m25s).
• Salesforce's platform is unique in that it integrates multiple components, including Sales Cloud, Service Cloud, Marketing Cloud, Commerce Cloud, and Analytics, into one piece of code, allowing for seamless data sharing and access (10m17s).
• The company's data Cloud, which is the amalgamation of all customer data, is a key component of the platform, providing access to over 230 petabytes of data and metadata, which is essential for accurate Enterprise AI (10m39s).
• The integration of data, metadata, and workflow is critical for achieving high accuracy and low hallucination in Enterprise AI, and Salesforce's platform is well-positioned to deliver this (10m35s).

Salesforce’s Biggest Challenge in AI Dominance (10m53s)

• Salesforce's biggest challenge in achieving AI dominance is to demonstrate the value of its Agent Force to customers, which was shipped on October 25th and has already seen 200 deals, with thousands more expected in the current quarter (10m54s).
• The goal is to show each customer the "magic" of Agent Force and its potential to provide tremendous value, with Salesforce itself serving as an example after turning on a new 100% agent-based support infrastructure (11m21s).
• This new infrastructure has allowed Salesforce to rebalance its headcount and create a digital workforce alongside its human workforce, with digital labor now playing a key role in the company (11m43s).
• The challenge lies in explaining this new concept to every single company, as it represents a new horizon for business and the introduction of digital labor for the first time (11m58s).
• This development is considered the most exciting thing to happen to business, as it brings digital labor into the mix and has the potential to revolutionize the way companies operate (12m8s).

Will Salesforce Have More or Less Employees in 5 Years? (12m14s)

• Salesforce is expected to have more employees in 5 years, with the company currently planning for 2025 and anticipating growth (12m20s).
• The company will not be adding more software engineers next year due to increased productivity from AI technology, such as Agent Force, which has improved engineering velocity by over 30% (12m33s).
• As a result of the increased productivity, Salesforce will have fewer support engineers next year due to the implementation of an agentic layer (12m52s).
• However, the company plans to add 1 to 2,000 more salespeople in the short term to effectively communicate the value of AI to customers (13m5s).

How Will Digital Labor Impact SaaS Pricing Models? (13m9s)

• The integration of digital labor in SaaS is changing pricing models, with a shift from per-user pricing for humans to per-conversation pricing for digital agents, with a starting price of around $2 per conversation that can be negotiated based on volume for customers (13m29s).
• The current pricing model for digital labor is consumption-based, charging per conversation, and this model is expected to continue as digital labor becomes more prevalent (13m25s).
• The growth rate and maturation of large language models (LLMs) are slowing down as they become commoditized, with many companies, including Salesforce, building their own LLMs, but also leveraging others in the industry (15m7s).
• Salesforce has a strong AI team and has developed several top models in the industry, but also uses and invests in other models, including those from companies like Anthropic and MSTR, and has a selection of capabilities to choose from depending on the task at hand (15m38s).
• The future of AI is expected to be a world of many models, where users can choose from different models for different use cases, and this is already possible with the availability of many AI apps on mobile devices (16m29s).
• The commoditization of LLMs is not unusual in the history of AI, where new models and technologies emerge, become popular, and then become commoditized, leading to a wait for the next innovation (14m20s).
• Salesforce has had internal discussions about whether to invest in building its own LLMs or leveraging others, and has decided to do both, using its own models while also investing in and using other models in the industry (15m15s).
• The use of multiple models for different tasks is expected to continue, with users choosing the best model for the task at hand, and this is already possible with the availability of many AI apps and models (16m17s).
• The founder of Salesforce has personally invested in several AI companies, including U.com, which offers an incredible model and set of capabilities, and is used for research and personal activities (16m35s).

Which AI Company Offers the Best Investment Opportunity? (17m18s)

• The question of which AI company offers the best investment opportunity is posed, with options including Open AI at $160, Anthropic at $160, and X.C at $50 (17m18s).
• It is suggested that none of these companies may be a good investment at the moment, as they are all developing similar products and technologies (17m31s).
• The current state of the AI industry is seen as a moment where each company needs to differentiate itself and become its own unique entity, rather than being a generic company (17m49s).
• To succeed, AI companies need to decide on a specific vertical or specialty to focus on, rather than trying to be a general-purpose company (17m57s).
• The idea that different AI models will be better suited to different industries is seen as an area where these models will start to excel (18m12s).
• The example of Perplexity, which is trying to be unique in the financial services industry, is given as an illustration of this trend (18m5s).

The Biggest Question About AI & Salesforce’s Future (18m20s)

• The biggest question about AI and Salesforce's future is how to explain the huge value that customers can get from Agent Force, which is a top priority for the company (18m23s).
• The company is moving its whole support infrastructure to the Genic platform, and the whole sales platform will also be moved to the Genic platform to show customers what is possible (18m51s).
• The company is in a new world in terms of what is possible today, and customers do not understand this and what it can mean for them (19m9s).
• The top focus is Agent Force, and the second focus is finding fuel in the company to drive the first, which includes expanding distribution (19m19s).
• The fuel will be found by using Agent Force, which will let the company rebalance its workforce, moving people from support to sales or other functions (19m39s).
• The company has 9,000 people in support today, but it will not have as many people in support in the future, as Agent Force will enable the company to move more people into other functions (19m45s).
• Some employees will be moved to new opportunities, and the company has a lot of growth happening, providing opportunities for employees to be moved (20m17s).
• Even in the layoffs that happened two years ago, the company has hired a lot of those employees back into the company (20m29s).
• The layoffs were a necessary tool for the company to be restructured and prepare for the future, and it was a difficult decision, but sometimes it's necessary for CEOs to make tough decisions (20m56s).

Salesforce’s Top Strategic Decisions & Lessons (21m49s)

• The two most strategic decisions made at Salesforce that worked out were influenced by lessons learned from other experiences and relationships, including a meeting with Steve Jobs (21m50s).
• Steve Jobs advised focusing on one thing at a time, which had a significant impact on decision-making at Salesforce, leading to a focus on Agent Force (23m9s).
• The advice to focus on one thing was difficult to implement as a leader, as it required finding ways to make other divisions feel important while prioritizing Agent Force (23m36s).
• To address this challenge, conversations with other organizations, such as the Marketing Cloud and Commerce Cloud, were focused on how they could integrate Agent Force and AI to improve their products (24m10s).
• The goal was to transform these products into "agent-first" versions, showcasing the future of these technologies and their potential to transform customers (24m26s).
• At Salesforce, all 75,000 employees, tens of thousands of salespeople, and 135,000 customers needed to be brought up to speed on the possibilities of Agent Force and its breakthroughs (24m40s).
• The focus on Agent Force was prioritized over discussing other Salesforce products, with the aim of making it the central focus of the company's efforts (23m28s).

Salesforce’s Biggest Mistake (24m54s)

• The most important thing for CEOs is to cultivate a "beginner's mind," being ready to adapt to constant changes in technology, politics, and economics, and having an open mind to new possibilities (25m17s).
• The concept of a "beginner's mind" is also known as "shoshin" in Japanese, which means having a mind that is open to new experiences and knowledge (25m40s).
• Before the Dreamforce conference, the company was preparing a big demo for Gucci, but after receiving customer feedback on Agent Force, the company pivoted and changed its focus to Agent Force (26m53s).
• The company delivered Agent Force to the first five customers, including companies like Wy, Open Table, ADP, and Disney, and received positive feedback (26m59s).
• The company then pivoted and changed its messaging for Dreamforce to focus on Agent Force, and delivered the product on October 24th (27m35s).
• In the first five days of the quarter, the company closed about 200 Agent Force deals, and expects to do thousands more in the next quarter (28m9s).
• The key to success is not only cultivating a beginner's mind but also trusting oneself to make big decisions and focus on one thing (28m22s).
• The company's pivot to Agent Force was a result of trusting the customer feedback and hitting the "Steve Jobs button" to focus on one thing (28m26s).
• The company's AI-powered assistant, Astro, was also rebranded as Agent Astro to reflect the company's new focus on Agent Force (28m36s).
• Being the CEO of a large company like Salesforce requires being ready for exhaustive moments, such as earnings, Dreamforce, and product launches, and one must be prepared to leave it all on the field to achieve success (29m5s).
• As the CEO, it is essential to constantly ask oneself if everything necessary is being done to make the company successful, and this question should be asked every single day (29m30s).
• The role of a CEO is not just about being present at events but also about being prepared to put in the effort required to make the company successful, and this can be exhausting (29m1s).
• After 25 years of being the CEO of Salesforce, growing the company from an idea to $38 billion in revenue, it is clear that being ready to leave it all on the field each and every moment is crucial to achieving success (30m17s).
• The CEO must be prepared to put everything behind them and move forward, as stated by Jensen, to continue growing and achieving the company's goals (30m25s).

Looking Back, Would Marc Does It Again? (30m27s)

• If Marc Benioff had known how hard it was going to be to build Salesforce, he wouldn't have done it, considering the company's current $38 billion in revenue (30m28s).
• David Kirk, who led the creation of the GPU for Jensen at Nvidia, is an example of someone who successfully pivoted after achieving great success, as he retired and became the chairman of his kids' school and invested in his community (30m40s).
• Jensen, the CEO of Nvidia, is another example of a successful pivot, as he shifted his company's focus to deep learning in 2013, recognizing the potential of the technology and the GPU's suitability for it (31m42s).
• Unlike Jensen, Marc Benioff did not pivot Salesforce entirely around deep learning, although he did incorporate it into the company (31m54s).
• Jensen's pivot was a hard one, and he deserves credit for having the vision and insight to make such a significant change, which ultimately led to Nvidia being ready to support Open AI when it started (32m1s).
• The ability to pivot successfully requires a beginner's mind and the willingness to leave everything behind and start anew, which can be challenging for companies stuck in a cycle of constant activity (32m40s).
• It's essential for companies to slow down, break the cycle, and get back into the present moment to realize what they need to achieve their greatest success and identify the values that will guide them (33m1s).

Opinion on Big Tech Was Coerced into Censorship (33m22s)

• A conversation between Mark Andreessen and Joe Rogan was mentioned, where Mark Andreessen stated that big tech companies didn't just cave to censorship, but were coerced, especially by the government (33m33s).
• The government's involvement in social media companies' operations was revealed in the conversation, which included information about banking and social media (33m52s).
• The idea that big tech companies were coerced into censorship was surprising, and it's not something that has been seen in the company being discussed (34m13s).
• The company almost bought Twitter, which would have given insight into the government's involvement with big consumer platforms (34m24s).
• The reason for wanting to buy Twitter was not related to censorship, but rather because it was seen as a great vehicle for distributing content and applications (34m45s).
• The idea was to build a tool to create apps that could run in Twitter frames, similar to the hypercard technology model (35m24s).
• The goal was to build an app store and deliver apps in frames, which is why the company was interested in Twitter (35m43s).
• The company's founder has always been interested in application development and deployment, starting from a young age (35m54s).
• The founder's first product was a how-to-juggle software, and they went on to write software adventure games and automated simulations (35m58s).
• The company's founder is excited about Elon and Doge because they believe in the importance of fiscal responsibility, both in companies and countries (36m38s).
• The founder hopes that the United States will get back to having a balanced budget and that fiscal responsibility will become a bipartisan issue (36m55s).

Quick-Fire Round (37m7s)

• The favorite consumer brand is Louis Vuitton, due to its luxurious experience both online and in-store, and also because it is a Salesforce customer, allowing for constant product testing (37m10s).
• In the last 12 months, there has been a change of mind regarding the impact of AI on customers, with the breakthrough of Agent Force being more powerful and happening more quickly than expected (37m36s).
• Agents need to become multimodal in the future, moving beyond their current mostly text-based capabilities to provide a more comprehensive experience (38m8s).
• The most concerning issue is the potential dark side of AI, emphasizing the need for education on both the good and bad aspects of the technology (38m27s).
• It is unlikely that Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) will be achieved by 2025, but rather the maturation and commoditization of Large Language Models (LLMs) is expected (39m17s).
• A question that is rarely asked is how businesses can be used for good, with Salesforce being a prime example of a company that has made a significant impact through its philanthropic efforts, including giving away about $1 billion and running 50,000 nonprofits for free on its service (39m50s).